I had to turn FTL off today due to this repeated subject. It’s times like this I wish Aria would be replaced.
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Be the change you want in the world.
Uh, surgery and medical procedures often aren’t pretty to look at. So what? Do you have any real point, aside from anti-trans bigotry?
My point is, do you find this looks like healthy behavior?
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If I showed you a photo of someone getting surgery to remove a bullet from their abdomen, would you say it looked like healthy behavior? When it comes to things like surgery, asking whether it looks good isn’t really the most relevant question.
Do you think the only reason trans freedom is talked about on Free Talk Live is because one of the hosts is trans? What’s wrong with it being discussed? And what’s wrong with one of the hosts being trans? Why not just let people be who they want to be, so long as they aren’t violating the rights of others?
You avoided answering the question. And yes, if they shot themselves, it would look like unhealthy behavior.
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I think because one of the main hosts is trans the subject comes up far too often! And what’s wrong with the host being a trans satanist? It makes anarchism and voluntarism look bad because people see someone so messed up, it reflects negatively upon whatever else they might be talking about. Ie. If this individual is this messed up in these areas, then what’s the likelihood these other topics they support aren’t just as messed up.
I explained why it wasn’t the most relevant question to be asking.
To compare feeling at odds with your gender identity with shooting yourself is a rather preposterous analogy, don’t you think?
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The problem I’m seeing is an assumption that if someone is transgender, or satanist, they must be “messed up”. Perhaps you associate transgenderism with harmful self-mutilation or satanism with evil and the worship of some kind of supernatural monster, but for most trans people and satanists themselves, that’s not what these things are about, and your assumptions or associations are irrelevant to their experience, desires, and ways of being.
Whether their behavior looks healthy or unhealthy is relevant, and is the most important thing to be asking.
You raised the analogy that someone getting shot and having to have surgery was healthy. My reply was pointing out that they didn’t have surgery because circumstance forced it upon them, no, instead they ELECTED to have the surgery, ie. they were the cause and shot themselves! If you don’t like that analogy, then here’s another one: they identified with having an imaginary bullet so that they then had these surgeries. Is that healthy behavior in your opinion?
I’ve heard enough first accounts of satanist human sacrifice. Both adult and babies, and the babies were consumed. First-hand witness accounts, so yes, I understand what it’s about.
And above, you have evidence with your own eyes what the trans issue is about. So, yes, I’m going to believe my own eyes too.
And most other people do too, that’s why it reflects badly on the other topics by association.
You are assuming that gender dysphoria, or feelings of being mismatched to one’s gender presentation, are imaginary and self-inflicted. That’s like saying that an inclination toward music, or carpentry, or writing, is imaginary and self-inflicted.
What’s your issue with letting other people live their lives and make their own decisions about which peaceful aspirations they want to pursue?
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I’m closer to your opinion here, but I’d like to see you steelman the other side.
It’s hard for people on the opposite side to think rationally through their squeamishness. As per Jonathan Haidt’s great presentation at Reason, libertarians are famously hard to gross out, but trans surgery presses some pretty fundamental buttons. Is there some truth to the claim by many homosexuals that medical procedures are increasingly being pushed on young, suggestible people who would have been happier with alternative routes? While any surgery is inherently disgusting, I’ve heard some horror stories about the final results, but I have no idea how typical those are.
Lately I’ve been listening to some calm homosexual voices (on UnHerd and Triggernometry) discussing these issues. I’d like to hear more from rationalists.
I think some people who have gender reassignment surgery as kids do grow to regret it, even though the vast majority do not (see e.g. How common is transgender treatment regret, detransitioning? | AP News). And on the flip side, I’ve talked to many transfolks who wished they’d started transitioning when they were younger. Generally the younger the age of transitioning, the more effective it tends to be in terms of someone developing to look like the preferred sex – hence the conundrum in regards to saying “just wait a few years and see how you feel”.
I don’t think it’s something that should be done lightly however, and I think prudence might often recommend waiting until one has gone through puberty, especially if one is feeling at all uncertain or confused about one’s sexuality and the whole nine yards. But some transgender people know from a very young age, and exhibit behaviors, clothing preferences, etc., that are clearly at odds with their gender assigned at birth, even when they were toddlers. For these people, it seems cruel to prevent them from getting their lives sorted as soon as possible by taking the step of surgical reassignment.
I really doubt that many kids are pressured into it. For one thing, it’s possible to take hormones and live as the other gender without it. If a kid says they might be trans but seems at all uncertain about it, I think it’s highly unlikely that their parents or medical professionals are going to pressure them into doing something that many trans people live happily without. The vast majority of transfolks never get “bottom” surgery (see e.g. U.S. Gender Confirmation Surgery Up 19% in 2016, Doctors Say).
One thing I notice though – and your observation about people having difficulty thinking through their squeamishness rationally make me think you probably get this – is that there just aren’t a lot of people out there saying, “I think transgenderism is great, and I applaud people changing their gender identity, I just have reservations about kids getting major surgery at a young age.” When I’ve dug a little deeper, I’ve almost always found that people voicing horror, outrage, and concern over kids and surgery really just don’t like the whole transgender phenomenon and aren’t comfortable with trans adults either. As with the anti-abortion movement and its focus on fetuses, I think the horror at the idea of confused teen girls getting their breasts removed and such is kind of a red herring that doesn’t reflect the real feelings or motives of most of the people making these complaints.
I think what it actually is, is that many people still have a lot of discomfort around sexuality. This manifests in opposition to a whole constellation of things from homosexuality, to drugs, to porn, to abortion, to nudity, to transgenderism, to prostitution, but it gets dressed up in language about other concerns, whether it’s public health, trafficking, harm to children, saving the unborn, or what-not.
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I am sick and tired of having the black hand of government stealing my money. How can I transition away from this abuse?
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LOL… I think a lot of us are interested in that kind of transitioning.
DOn’t forget, do not think that the governent is this alien species from a galaxy far far away. The Government is entirely comprised of people…It is these people that are my enemy. These people have actuvely enslaved me and stolen from me. I want out of this hell.
I hope Bud Light will recognize my 365 days of transitioning into a free human…I’ll be waiting fir my special can
A conundrum indeed, and the AP article suggests another paradox:
“Some studies suggest that rates of regret have declined over the years as patient selection and treatment methods have improved. In a review of 27 studies involving almost 8,000 teens and adults who had transgender surgeries, mostly in Europe, the U.S and Canada, 1% on average expressed regret.”
Regret has fallen partially because of better patient selection, so if we say, “Don’t worry, regret is low and falling,” we’re likely to make more mistakes. Still, those are encouraging numbers. I wonder what the numbers are for regret about non- or delayed transitioning?
It would be helpful to have a visual map to keep in mind the various transgender types and scenarios:
-First would be direction: MTF and FTM.
-Among the former, there are what I call type 1 and type 2: the classic early-onset dysphoria, and the late-onset paraphilia known as autogynephilia. Speaking of squeamishness, paraphilias remain a taboo. But enraged TERFs have no problem bringing up autogynephilia when it means men invading women’s spaces (or probably any of the paraphilias, like exhibitionism, that somehow entail men mistreating women).
-Among the FTMs, there seems (from what I hear) to be even more fuzziness of motivation. They are apparently more influenced by social contagion. Another category: while girls today are being socialized (after their brief princess phases) to be more assertive and pursue traditionally male roles (swing swords, climb status hierarchies, have fewer children), they are going through puberty earlier (for a variety of reasons). I hypothesize that many young girls feel a discomfort with their mismatched womanly bodies and immature brains. That’s a concern for my 13- and 14-year-old daughters, who are already being hit on by 20-year-old men. (BTW, I’ve got a hypothesis that young girls often do ridiculous things with their hair in order to signal “Immature, not yet on the mating market” and deter would-be suitors.)
So many moral values being activated by these issues, moral values felt by left, right, and/or libertarians. The polarized news media feed on outrage, and play off each other, so they will present a distorted, exaggerated image of what’s happening, and perhaps a dishonest one (I’m thinking of Matt Walsh’s ‘documentary’). There are also trans activists, probably a noisy minority, being provocative, narcissistic, and generally dark-triadish. One has to exclude such people, even if they are the majority of voices, and focus on the rational. And there are a lot of rational libertarians, some LGB themselves, who’ve got no trouble with alternative lifestyles but who do draw some libertarian lines. As always, children are a problem area.
I’ll take the opportunity to mention that two of my favorite libertarian moments were the 2012 LPNC, when you entered the hall looking fabulous, and Buzz’s Big Gay Dance Party at PorcFest, featuring geeky non-LGBT libertarians dancing with feather boas in solidarity. I’m proud to have you guys on the team, and proud of the team that welcomes you.
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