What's up? I'm Danny 20 y/o from Jerzey and have been deeply interested in the 'liberty/truth' movement for some time now and have been studying history/law and nwo type information intensely for over 2 1/2 years now. I came across the movement here in Keene some months back after seeing a video linked off infowars of that goon burke arresting Ian for sitting too slow. I must say I'm thoroughly impressed with all the activism I can see out here and really more than anything the spirit of liberty and the hope that one gets when looking at what you might call the social experiments going on in Keene/ FSNH… and all the other people who are moving down there for the cause. Power in numbers.
If anyone is interested, I have court on the 5th of January in which I will be recording via hidden audio recorder the proceedings and I will be going in using many of these commerce / UCC arguments for those that are familiar with them and curious as to their validity as I am… Will also be going at it taking the Marc Stevens approach for those of you who are familiar with him… so it should be pretty interesting, I will post the audio of the first initial hearing probably later that day or the following day.
I just want to save up a few thousand before I make the trip out there and hopefully have some idea or assurance that I will be able to get some kind of roof over my head and even a little minimum wage job to work at as I don't need to much since I already work for myself and make a little money over the net as an affiliate marketer. So greetings to all!
Hey Danny, good luck in court, and congrats on your decision to move.
I think you will easily get a roof over your head when you move. I know of at least one activist who offers shelter for $10 a night, and you might be able to find an even better deal. As a last resort, there are homeless services in Keene. Also, if you're moving in 3-5 months, that's almost summer and the weather is pretty nice. I camped out one night when I was in Keene and fared alright.
It's exciting to see how many people are moving to Keene. There's almost certainly gonna be some changes!
Hmm… sounds good, but I would like my own place… I'm big on privacy and personal space. I don't really enjoy sharing living premises with others generally, especially if they are tight. However, in certain circumstances of course, exceptions can be made. What does a decent or even not so decent one bedroom or studio apartment cost look like out there??
And yeah, pretty soon as far as I can see this trend going… a good percentage of the city will be activists and hopefully in due course we could be the first example in the country of where people got off their fat asses, got active, and effectively kicked out/put out of business all the corrupt politicians and bureaucrats and introduced the first purely voluntary society. Or at the very least got back to strict libertarian principals. I think if the Keene experiment turns out a success it could be a great inspiration for the rest of the liberty movement across the country. Like, see, we did it.
I don't know of any other part of the country where there is such a concentrated number of activists to a particular area… However I have a feeling very soon the goons over there are going to get sick of it and really start taking the velvet glove off the iron fist. Peaceful evolution is great, but it's probably important for activists to all start purchasing firearms, just in case. Because there may come a time
In my experience, a room in a 3BR would cost you $300-400, and a 1BR studio would run you around $600 monthly (plus utilities.) Here's an example. Craigslist is full of similar offerings.
It will be great to have you! What on earth are you waiting for???
Welcome ChRoNo. Good luck with your court strategy. Looking forward to hearing the recording.
Don't forget to check out the housing section of this forum.
Actually, I'm probably going to sell my firearm.
ChRoNo,
About the violence thing, I understand how you feel. I at one time thought similarly to you. Then I found that I don't think there's ever a time for violence against the state aggressors. That only lowers you to their level and will do nothing to advance freedom. It gives the state an excuse to extinguish your life and then use you as their reason to expand their power. Violence begets violence.
I agree with you to a certain extent, however I believe it is ones god given 'right' if you will, to defend your life, liberty, and property. The founding fathers fully understood the necessity for an armed and willing citizenry. Hell, even Mao said political power grows from the barrel of a gun. How do you 'reach' these people, when many if not most of them only personally recognize power and violence? If you don't pay property taxes, and they come steal your home which you thought you owned… do you think they really care about the fact that they are throwing you out on the street? If so, what facts do your rely on to support your conclusion that many/most of these people have a conscience? There is a reason why they chose a job who's mission statement is control.
I think there should come a point in time where we have enough activists ready and willing as men to defend their life, liberty, and property from bureaucratic goons to really do something worthwhile and really make a statement. One day someone should refuse to pay their property taxes. And when the thugs come to manhandle this man/woman out of their home and then proceed to try to steal it they should be met on the front lawn with 20 or 30 peaceful activists open carrying letting them know that we will not aggres against them or initiate the use of physical force, we want peace, but are fully prepared to defend this man/womans life, liberty, and property and will not allow you to steal this persons home and throw them out onto the street. What do you think would happen?
[quote author=ChRoNo link=topic=2206.msg25364#msg25364 date=1262195024] I agree with you to a certain extent, however I believe it is ones god given 'right' if you will, to defend your life, liberty, and property. The founding fathers fully understood the necessity for an armed and willing citizenry. Hell, even Mao said political power grows from the barrel of a gun. How do you 'reach' these people, when many if not most of them only personally recognize power and violence? [/quote]
I think what Mao said might be more telling about the nature of political power and what it lives off of, than about the necessity to be armed.
[quote author=ChRoNo link=topic=2206.msg25364#msg25364 date=1262195024]
If so, what facts do your rely on to support your conclusion that many/most of these people have a conscience? There is a reason why they chose a job who's mission statement is control.[/quote]
…Because they're the evil Other?
Oh and welcome and such. I have a brother who's into the liberty/truth movement stuff, yet does not like the idea of the FSP hardly at all, so it's kinda a surprise.
[quote author=ChRoNo link=topic=2206.msg25364#msg25364 date=1262195024]What do you think would happen?[/quote]
Well first, I don't think that'll happen because most of the people suggesting such things are always waiting for someone else to fire the first shot, so to speak. But given that it did, I think a blood-bath is what would happen. The activists would all be dead or captured and all would be effectively labeled as kooks. Why? Because all you did was use the same tactics the state uses, i.e. you could convince someone to agree with you, so you tried to out might them (might makes right), only they have way more might than you. Meanwhile, some libertarians might be on your side and say that you were in the right, but you already had those people on your side. The people who think you should have to pay taxes, well you've done nothing to convince them you shouldn't have to, and so they'll see you as selfish and violent kooks. Definitely no progress for liberty, but most likely a serious setback not the least of which is a lot of dead liberty lovers who won't live to spread the message of liberty.
BTW, aside from a few psychopaths, people do have conciences. That's why they rely on the elaborate and contrived justification system of a state for the violence they do, or that they delegate to others to do for them when they don't have the stomach for it. They BELIEVE in it. They BELIEVE it's right. It's the idea that we have to deal with and killing or threatening people won't do anything to weaken the idea.
Excellent post ChRoNo , very thoughtful
[quote author=ChRoNo link=topic=2206.msg25364#msg25364 date=1262195024]
What do you think would happen?
[/quote]
It would end with all involved either dead or looking at very long stretches in cages … likely federal prisons far from any support from family and friends. I could think of situations where I may physically defend my family or people I care deeply for … but an armed resistance has exactly zero chance of being successful in this day and age .
I understand your feelings and am sure you and i would agree about the violence and "legalized" theft by the state … any one who's eyes have been opened to the tyranny we are witnessing has to get super pissed at times … but you will NEVER win a gang fight with the government … and IMO , just discussing it is detrimental to what these people are doing in HN.
I really appreciated what Dale said about the guys who talk about this are always waiting for some one else to be the ones "standing up " . that was good for two chuckles and a big grin.
Welcome!
Glad to have you here & I look forward to meeting you!
I think having 20 or 30 people occupying the property when eviction occurs could be quite powerful, but the guns are unnecessary.
I can't fathom it any other way… I'm thinking SOONER or LATER it's going to have to come down to the guns. Lest we just succumb and fall to our knees in submission and welcome the shackles and bondage, while complaining, protesting, and stating we're under duress…of course. What the hell do they care if 20 or 30 people are occupying the territory? They have the guns and they are there to steal property whether you like it or not. And you don't like it. And you know what? They don't care. I repeat they DON'T care that you or anyone else thinks it's wrong and I would say over 90% of them would commit the theft in good conscious thinking they are doing the right thing. and the other 10 percent would feel bad about it but do it anyways, because they are, of course, just "doing their job".
And as far as the suggestion I made, I'm not at all promoting the idea of armed rebellion or having a shootout with these goons. I'm simply saying I think it would be a good idea for there to be 20 or 30 people there who are open carrying while the robbery takes place. I never said anything about actually going the distance and drawing on them, even if they proceed with the robbery. That's why I asked the question what do you think would happen? If none of us open fired on them but simply stood in front of, and barricaded the doors open carrying yet with no real intention of using the firearm, what would happen? Would they, in front of a couple camera crews, be the first to initiate the use of physical force and shoot someone after being told that we want peace and we don't this matter to escalate, but at the same time don't intend on allowing you to steal this mans property?
If there was a camera crew right there at the crucial moments of Waco, would the feds have drawn first blood knowing it would later come out, with full video evidence, that they were the true aggressors and initiators?
Regarding hypothetical land stand-off, you wrote:
[quote]I'm thinking SOONER or LATER it's going to have to come down to the guns. [/quote]
It sounds like you're saying activists would have to use their guns.
But then you wrote:
[quote]
I'm not at all promoting the idea of armed rebellion or having a shootout with these goons.
[/quote]
So what's the benefit of having guns? Seems like it'd only serve to alienate people watching the conflict unfold on the news. If the guns aren't used, the outcome's the same–the activists are arrested/forced off the property.
Whether they're armed or not, they may get arrested, but I think the odds of arrest go way up if they're armed because it will make it such an easy sell with the public. The cops are going to be ancy and will (rightly) perceive the openly displayed firearms as an implied threat and the massive majority of the public will sympathize with them. Odds of someone getting shot by a cop go way up. Like I said, only the people who already agree with you will see that the cops are the actual aggressors. You seem deeply deluded to expect everyone out there to think like you do, like a libertarian, but they clearly don't. If they did, we'd already have liberty. A group of people armed and disobeying cops will be seen as aggressive. Either way it will make the news but I think the effect is much more likely to be positive and the risks much lower if they're not armed.
You can actually go limp and openly ignore orders from police if you are unarmed and non-threatening, and it will be more clear who the aggressors are. Not so with the armed group. The first order you receive would be to drop your weapons, quite possibly with loaded guns trained on you the whole time. Any slight transgression from that point on will act as an easy justification for the cops to be violent with you. They're trained to be extremely forceful and controlling in such a situation to protect themselves.
Honestly, I cannot picture any scenario whatsoever how just having them armed helps the outcome.
I believe that sooner or later if we don't succeed in peaceful evolution towards a voluntary or second best case scenario- a properly libertarian society it WILL have to come down to the guns, in a live free or die/give me liberty or give me death type of scenario… Because at least for me… I will be as reasonable, peaceful, and humble as I can possibly be but when and if it comes down to an ultimatum between freedom/slavery… I will have no problem dieing for the cause of liberty… as I believe most people would rather die as a free man on their feet than live as an obedient slave on their knees. I may be sounding a bit extreme or out in left field in these words for many reading as I'm not quite sure how aware, informed, or well researched those are who are reading this as to the current state of affairs we are truly in…outside of the small city of Keene,NH. There are big things going on in the world right now… the greatest changes ever in the course of human history are taking place right before our eyes… The novus ordo seclorum is being born and everything that goes with it, manifesting.
I however digress, in the particular hypothetical I mentioned… the guns would only speculatively and hopefully serve as a deterrent. Because possibly in my mind if say a group of maybe 10 or 15 RVA''s (revenue collection agents) commonly known as cops are confronted with 20-30 armed liberty activists I'd imagine that they might not attempt to advance on us in fear or with concern for their own life or safety… whether the threat be real or imagined. Furthermore, there would be no arrests I can foresee taking place as a result of this act of CD as there would be no guns drawn or overt acts of aggression, presuming of course it is lawful to open carry in the state of New Hampshire. It would more or less be a subtle implied threat to the effect of… "We're close to our breaking point." "Please take notice"