[quote author=ChRoNo link=topic=2206.msg25433#msg25433 date=1262243994]
I believe most people would rather die as a free man on their feet than live as an obedient slave on their knees.
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Just remember that you can peacefully defy authority. Violence is not the only way to assert sovereignty.
[quote]if […] cops are confronted with 20-30 armed liberty activists I'd imagine that they might not attempt to advance on us in fear or with concern for their own life or safety…[/quote]
Yeah, so then they call more of their buddies and a few hours later, the activists are outnumbered. I don't think it's likely that activists could do anything more than prolong the inevitable in such a scenario.
I also believe that you can peacefully defy authority… to a certain extent with certain individuals. However, how do you peacefully defy authority when your face is being kicked into the concrete for just that reason? "Not respecting their authoritttayyyyy" (cartmann emphasis) with no one there to help you and no audio/video to prove that your were being assaulted without just cause? i.e self defense. (I've been there) I hold peace and security to the highest regard and wish it upon myself as well my fellow man… however, I do keep in mind the wise who came before me… "Those who would sacrifice a little liberty for a little security, get neither and deserve neither" -Benjamin Franklin.
I think if some of the founders were alive today, they would scoff at us and tell us to man up.
If you or anyone else reading is a student of history such a myself, you'll remember what it took for the colonists to win their liberty… not only vicious war and bloodshed on the field of battle but months/years of intensive labor, and marching through feet of snow, building war fortresses while dying of diseases, wearing the most wretched unwashed attire. Always short on gunpowder, food, rations and other essentials always wondering and anxietly awaiting what the next day may bring, leaving wives, children, and loved ones behind… I could go on but etc etc etc…Those were real men back in those days. They would be ashamed of us and what we're putting up with. Can you just imagine how the founders and/or originals colonists would have dealt with the bureaucrats that were dealing/putting up with today? Not to say deal with them in that manner, but just as a point of reference… just imagine. We've "lost our mojo" so to speak… I'd say we've been conditioned/programmed from a young age through scientific indoctrination to accept this… It takes alot for one to break through and unplug themselves from the matrix.
[quote author=ChRoNo link=topic=2206.msg25435#msg25435 date=1262246534]
I think if some of the founders were alive today, they would scoff at us and tell us to man up.
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Likely so. They would encourage us to get more involved with the political system. I assure you, I'm working through the political system and I've seen good results. I'd love for you to work with you on the local pro-freedom issues that are important to you in NH.
[quote author=ChRoNo link=topic=2206.msg25435#msg25435 date=1262246534]
If you or anyone else reading is a student of history such a myself, you'll remember what it took for the colonists to win their liberty…
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But they didn't. A few of the founders wanted real liberty, but most of them were wealthy aristocrats that just wanted a local state under their control. They were power grabbers. The colonists didn't even hold onto the tiny bit of liberty they had before the massive power grab known as the Constitutional Convention. You can't fight evil with evil. All that struggling and fighting you speak of, it didn't change anything fundamentally. They replaced their old masters with new masters. We're not going to be free until we can break that vicious cycle. The first step is your state of mind. That first step gets you a lot of freedom, actually.
[quote author=ChRoNo link=topic=2206.msg25435#msg25435 date=1262246534]
I think if some of the founders were alive today, they would scoff at us and tell us to man up.
If you or anyone else reading is a student of history such a myself, you'll remember what it took for the colonists to win their liberty… [/quote]
Your predilection with the perception of manliness aside…
It took lying, political drama queens running through assembly halls, propoganda, neighbors being stripped naked and hot tar being poured onto their skin for being known of as a "tory," destroying the home of a man who was against the Stamp Act and didn't want it enforced in the first place, little German kids getting shot at and killed by soldiers after the mob starts throwing rocks and hitting them in the head, lying, propoganda…oh wait got those already.
Oh wait they didn't even want just liberty, they wanted liberty from their contemporary masters.
We could have a 1776-style violent revolution right now, and have a non-zero chance of succeeding. The question is, what comes AFTER that? If there's a violent revolution now, then the State we have today is just going to be replaced by another equally tyrannical State. This is what happened in 1787.
A time may come in the future when violent revolution will not necessarily lead to this, but the conditions of tyranny are going to have to get a lot worse, and the general public sentiment is going to have to lean a lot closer to voluntaryism. The best thing we can do today to bring these conditions about is to educate people about voluntaryism and its benefits to society – and each of them individually.
omg. Dude. Is your name supposed to be like, Chrono from Chrono-Trigger?
Dalebert: First, when I was talking about the struggles and hardships, if you read my post, I was referring to the colonists, the common people… not those known as the "founding fathers". I agree with you in that only a few of the founders wanted real liberty… as far as I can tell that would include Jefferson, Patrick Henry, MAYBE Madison… etc… and the Anti-federalists. And yes, much of the founding fathers were aristocrats at heart and were probably mainly only interested in the power grab… i.e Hamilton, Adams, Washington. As far as Franklin… I'm not quite sure what to say about him… he's a pretty unpredictable mysterious character who had a million different faces. I also agree with your statement about what occurred in philly. However, I've never said fight evil with evil, nor have I expressed the intention of using any type of violence at all in response to their violence. All I've been saying is sooner or later if the tyranny gets to the point of total slavery, it will HAVE to come to the guns. Whether we have inclinations towards violence or not… unless one would be content with slavery. And as far as the idea I've expressed… it was more of a hypothetical question of what would happen if that took place? Would they go so far as to kill people and be the first to engage in violence on camera? Back to the question regarding Waco. I just thought a scene like that would make powerful statement in sending a message to the bureaucrats.
PraeterIdiot: Lol, yeah… it's from chrono trigger… that was like my all time favorite game when I was a kid, and I've sort of taken on that name as a nickname or tagname if you will. Chrono trigger = best RPG of all time. Period, end of discussion.
[quote author=ChRoNo link=topic=2206.msg25481#msg25481 date=1262291163]
PraeterIdiot: Lol, yeah… it's from chrono trigger… that was like my all time favorite game when I was a kid, and I've sort of taken on that name as a nickname or tagname if you will. Chrono trigger = best RPG of all time.
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bitchin! I had it on my computer up until recently, and was looking forward to working up the guts to try to beat Lavos.
I have the original Super Nintendo game. I wonder how much it's worth. You can't find them ANYWHERE in stores.
[quote author=ChRoNo link=topic=2206.msg25364#msg25364 date=1262195024]
What do you think would happen?
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It did happen. Haven't you heard of Ed and Elaine Brown?
I know it might not seem like it, but these people do have consciences. They simply use convoluted logic to hide the immorality of their actions from themselves. Also, many simply have never thought seriously about these things, they just follow what they were taught in grade school. Consider the efforts of Gandhi. This is what we need to emulate. Now is the time for educating and convincing people – weapons and violence do not do that.
[quote author=ChRoNo link=topic=2206.msg25481#msg25481 date=1262291163]
PraeterIdiot: Lol, yeah… it's from chrono trigger… that was like my all time favorite game when I was a kid, and I've sort of taken on that name as a nickname or tagname if you will. Chrono trigger = best RPG of all time. Period, end of discussion.
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Best RPG of all time? Maybe. It is really good and quite easy. Some people liked that you could play it over and over again with different endings. Have you tried Chrono Cross?
Yeah, I beat chrono cross… that game was weird.
Good luck! Hope to join you soon!