I stumbled onto a FTL podcast somehow and enjoyed the show. Listening to the ideas put forth made a lot of sense, but there seems to be a lot of misguided and misdirected anger toward the rank and file cops and legal system in general. I figure I'll either beat my head against the wall with your views, or we can find some common ground. But I'm always ready for debate.
And yeah, I'm the fuzz.
Welcome, this should be fun!
You're a dirty evil henchmen/thug/goon of the parasitic class ;D
Should we start a new forum for this?
[quote author=mackler link=topic=4846.msg50352#msg50352 date=1298693397]
Should we start a new forum for this?
[/quote]
There are several already specifically for this. 
I'm glad you stopped by. I should give you fair warning though-- the last cop who did what you're doing had an ongoing struggle with cognitive dissonance over the nature of his job, eventually quit the force, and evolved into a voluntaryist (psst-- that's the politically correct term for a free market anarchist). I was there every step of the way and watched the progression.
Are you still sure you want to do this? How bad do you want to keep your job? 
[quote author=Dalebert link=topic=4846.msg50353#msg50353 date=1298698018]
the last cop who did what you're doing had an ongoing struggle with cognitive dissonance over the nature of his job, eventually quit the force, and evolved into a voluntaryist…
[/quote]
The one before that, however, did not.
[quote author=Dalebert link=topic=4846.msg50353#msg50353 date=1298698018]
[quote author=mackler link=topic=4846.msg50352#msg50352 date=1298693397]
Should we start a new forum for this?
[/quote]
There are several already specifically for this.
I'm glad you stopped by. I should give you fair warning though-- the last cop who did what you're doing had an ongoing struggle with cognitive dissonance over the nature of his job, eventually quit the force, and evolved into a voluntaryist (psst-- that's the politically correct term for a free market anarchist). I was there every step of the way and watched the progression.
Are you still sure you want to do this? How bad do you want to keep your job?
[/quote]
For the record, he also tried to kill himself.
Anyway, it's pretty unusual for you to come here. Whenever liberty-lovers go to cop forums they typically get banned.
Welcome.
[quote author=Dalebert link=topic=4846.msg50353#msg50353 date=1298698018]
[quote author=mackler link=topic=4846.msg50352#msg50352 date=1298693397]
Should we start a new forum for this?
[/quote]
There are several already specifically for this.
I'm glad you stopped by. I should give you fair warning though-- the last cop who did what you're doing had an ongoing struggle with cognitive dissonance over the nature of his job, eventually quit the force, and evolved into a voluntaryist (psst-- that's the politically correct term for a free market anarchist). I was there every step of the way and watched the progression.
Are you still sure you want to do this? How bad do you want to keep your job?
[/quote]
Sure. I like my oppressive position in society, and it pays the bills. 
The light bulb in my head went on a couple years ago regarding my job. I stopped doing some of the things that we 'always did' because I recognized that some of it wasn't Constitutionally correct (go figure), and just a way to expand the information files.
Anyhow, I like the Free Keene idea, and am amused at how far some of you guys go to prove a point. But I must admit, your lives would be much easier if you understood a few concepts regarding what we do and what you'd like to be done.
I'll probably do more lurking than posting for now, but I have to ask Ian if his reply was a veiled threat or statement of 'fact?' From my experience, just trolls get banned, not people with differing opinions.
[quote author=OhCrapItsTheCops link=topic=4846.msg50357#msg50357 date=1298722220]
I'll probably do more lurking than posting for now, but I have to ask Ian if his reply was a veiled threat or statement of 'fact?' From my experience, just trolls get banned, not people with differing opinions.
[/quote]
Not at all. He's saying you're already ahead of them by expressing a willingness to communicate and he's glad you're here.
It's true what he says. Those forums are basically shrines for cops, kept pure by eliminating any appearance of dissenting opinion. Happens in the mainstream media too or in a police station if you try to file a complaint on a police officer.
[quote author=OhCrapItsTheCops link=topic=4846.msg50347#msg50347 date=1298686086]Listening to the ideas put forth made a lot of sense, but there seems to be a lot of misguided and misdirected anger toward the rank and file cops and legal system in general.[/quote]
I'm curious why you think that their anger is "misguided and misdirected," specifically? It seems a rather normal response to be angry when someone violently attacks you, or someone you care about.
Joe
[quote author=MaineShark link=topic=4846.msg50359#msg50359 date=1298730476]
[quote author=OhCrapItsTheCops link=topic=4846.msg50347#msg50347 date=1298686086]Listening to the ideas put forth made a lot of sense, but there seems to be a lot of misguided and misdirected anger toward the rank and file cops and legal system in general.[/quote]
I'm curious why you think that their anger is "misguided and misdirected," specifically? It seems a rather normal response to be angry when someone violently attacks you, or someone you care about.
Joe
[/quote]
I understand the concept of owning oneself, but society in its current state is a collective, with rights had by both the collective and the person. It seems to me that there is too much cop hate out there since we are stuck enforcing the laws that 'protect' both the collective and the person. And when one or the other side doesn't like how those laws are enforced, then we have anger directed at the middle men- me and the other guys that wear a badge.
You can be damn sure that any person would get angry if someone they cared about were attacked violently, and rightfully so. I'm talking about ACTUAL violence by the way and not THREAT of violence at the far back end of getting a ticket.
Yes, I'm aware of the ticket>warrant>swat team>dead guy idea.
[quote author=OhCrapItsTheCops link=topic=4846.msg50362#msg50362 date=1298733863]I understand the concept of owning oneself, but society in its current state is a collective, with rights had by both the collective and the person.[/quote]
There are only individuals.
[quote author=OhCrapItsTheCops link=topic=4846.msg50362#msg50362 date=1298733863]It seems to me that there is too much cop hate out there since we are stuck enforcing the laws that 'protect' both the collective and the person.[/quote]
You aren't "stuck" doing anything. You choose to do those things. Every single time you act, that is a choice you make, for which you are fully and completely responsible.
[quote author=OhCrapItsTheCops link=topic=4846.msg50362#msg50362 date=1298733863]And when one or the other side doesn't like how those laws are enforced, then we have anger directed at the middle men- me and the other guys that wear a badge[/quote]
Yup. You're the ones doing the "enforcement." Some legislator can rant on, all he wants, but that doesn't impact my life, unless you and the other "middle men" convert his words into violent actions.
[quote author=OhCrapItsTheCops link=topic=4846.msg50362#msg50362 date=1298733863]You can be damn sure that any person would get angry if someone they cared about were attacked violently, and rightfully so. I'm talking about ACTUAL violence by the way and not THREAT of violence at the far back end of getting a ticket.
Yes, I'm aware of the ticket>warrant>swat team>dead guy idea.[/quote]
The threat of violence, is "ACTUAL" violence. If a rapist says, "have sex with me or I'll cut your throat," that's violence. If a mugger says, "give me your wallet or I'll shoot you dead," that's violence. Or are you going to assert that rape and mugging are not violent crimes, as long as the perpetrator follows through with his promise not to kill the victim, after the victim complies? If mugging and rape are violent crimes, then what you do is violent, as well.
Joe
[quote author=MaineShark link=topic=4846.msg50364#msg50364 date=1298734501]
1. There are only individuals.
2. You aren't "stuck" doing anything. You choose to do those things. Every single time you act, that is a choice you make, for which you are fully and completely responsible.
3. Yup. You're the ones doing the "enforcement." Some legislator can rant on, all he wants, but that doesn't impact my life, unless you and the other "middle men" convert his words into violent actions.
4. The threat of violence, is "ACTUAL" violence. If a rapist says, "have sex with me or I'll cut your throat," that's violence. If a mugger says, "give me your wallet or I'll shoot you dead," that's violence. Or are you going to assert that rape and mugging are not violent crimes, as long as the perpetrator follows through with his promise not to kill the victim, after the victim complies? If mugging and rape are violent crimes, then what you do is violent, as well.
[/quote]
1. A group of individuals creates a community/society. I don't understand your point.
2. True, that is my job. But I don't make the rules.
3. The legislator is the maker of the rules. He impacts your life more strongly than the guy enforcing those rules in this country. You have recourse to fight these rules through the court system as you see fit, and can summarily 'beat' both the legislator and the enforcer.
4. An IMMINENT threat of violence pertains to crimes such as robbery and rape, not so in regard to a piece of paper with your name and a court date on it. With the piece of paper, you have ample opportunity to use the court system. See #3.
Oh, this IS going to be fun!
I'll start here: "I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them.
I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do."
That part in bold applies to everyone. You CANNOT abdicate your SOLE moral responsibility for your actions,
under ANY circumstances, and certainly not just because you're 'following orders'.
(this discussion is invariably going to include references to the SS/Nazis, and rightfully so. Its called 'precedent')
Dear Cop,
Do you think it's right that you have full power to waste someone's time by issuing one a pink piece of paper?
Even if the person is innocent and gets their "justice" in the courts, how much time and money has he/she wasted dealing with your charges against him/her. Including lawyer charges sometimes, and taking off work to deal with court - while you're paid, sometimes overtime, to be in court.
[quote author=OhCrapItsTheCops link=topic=4846.msg50357#msg50357 date=1298722220]
The light bulb in my head went on a couple years ago regarding my job. I stopped doing some of the things that we 'always did' because I recognized that some of it wasn't Constitutionally correct (go figure), and just a way to expand the information files.
[/quote]
Thank you for choosing to exercise your discretion as an individual when it came to these issues.
Could you elaborate on what parts of the job you found unconstitutional?
[quote author=OhCrapItsTheCops link=topic=4846.msg50366#msg50366 date=1298741458]1. A group of individuals creates a community/society. I don't understand your point.[/quote]
"Society" is an illusion. It's no more real than unicorns. Just as with unicorns, we can still talk about it but, at the end of the day, only individuals actually exist. Only individuals actually have rights. Only individuals can actually be harmed.
[quote author=OhCrapItsTheCops link=topic=4846.msg50366#msg50366 date=1298741458]2. True, that is my job. But I don't make the rules.[/quote]
What's your point? Did someone hold a gun to your head and force you to take that job? If you see someone doing something illegal, but which harms no one, and you fail to interfere, will someone commit violence against you? You choose to do whatever things you do.
[quote author=OhCrapItsTheCops link=topic=4846.msg50366#msg50366 date=1298741458]3. The legislator is the maker of the rules. He impacts your life more strongly than the guy enforcing those rules in this country.[/quote]
I'm going to write down "all cops must pay me $20, whenever I go up to them and ask for it" on a piece of paper. Think it will impact your life?
I can make all the rules I want. Unless I am willing and able to enforce them, or hire someone to do it for me, they won't impact anyone else's life. Enforcement is the only factor that impacts anyone's life.
[quote author=OhCrapItsTheCops link=topic=4846.msg50366#msg50366 date=1298741458]You have recourse to fight these rules through the court system as you see fit, and can summarily 'beat' both the legislator and the enforcer.[/quote]
No, I don't. For starters, I cannot even walk into a court without giving up my most fundamental human rights, placing myself at the mercy of a man in a dress who can throw me in a cage at the slightest whim. Going on from there, the court system is fully corrupt. There is not a shred of justice present within those walls. The men in dresses, the prosecutors, the police, and even the defense attorneys collude to maintain the status quo, regardless of whether it is just or even legal. Destruction of evidence, coercion of plea bargains, and perjury are the norm in courts, not the exception.
[quote author=OhCrapItsTheCops link=topic=4846.msg50366#msg50366 date=1298741458]4. An IMMINENT threat of violence pertains to crimes such as robbery and rape, not so in regard to a piece of paper with your name and a court date on it. With the piece of paper, you have ample opportunity to use the court system. See #3.
[/quote]
Turn your blue lights on behind me. What happens if I don't stop? The threat of violence is quite imminent. No one would stop to talk to you long enough to even let you hand them the piece of paper, if the threat of violence wasn't right there, right then. If I do not comply, you will escalate the situation until someone's dead. The only time that doesn't happen, is when your victim de-escalates the situation by complying with your demands.
Joe
If you do immoral things and attempt to rationalize them, you can't expect everybody to like you. It just doesn't work that way.
With that said, I'm glad this thread was started and look forward to the interaction. I wish more cops would take personal responsibility, listen to FTL and disavow initiating aggression under the guise of "protecting society". I'd also like a pony for my birthday. ;D
[quote author=Coconut link=topic=4846.msg50370#msg50370 date=1298747003]
Dear Cop,
Do you think it's right that you have full power to waste someone's time by issuing one a pink piece of paper?
Even if the person is innocent and gets their "justice" in the courts, how much time and money has he/she wasted dealing with your charges against him/her. Including lawyer charges sometimes, and taking off work to deal with court - while you're paid, sometimes overtime, to be in court.
[/quote]
It all depends on the reason you are getting that piece of paper. If you get that piece of paper for being a hazard to another person, then absolutely, I think it's right.
[quote author=Neal Jiutai link=topic=4846.msg50372#msg50372 date=1298747287]
[quote author=OhCrapItsTheCops link=topic=4846.msg50357#msg50357 date=1298722220]
The light bulb in my head went on a couple years ago regarding my job. I stopped doing some of the things that we 'always did' because I recognized that some of it wasn't Constitutionally correct (go figure), and just a way to expand the information files.
[/quote]
Thank you for choosing to exercise your discretion as an individual when it came to these issues.
Could you elaborate on what parts of the job you found unconstitutional?
[/quote]
We had a policy where we were to get information from the people we came in contact with. It's obvious that if you aren't doing something wrong or suspected of doing something wrong, then you should not have to give your information to anyone. That's pretty much the gist of the most common problem.