[quote author=free libertarian link=topic=4846.msg50375#msg50375 date=1298752990]
If you do immoral things and attempt to rationalize them, you can't expect everybody to like you. It just doesn't work that way.
With that said, I'm glad this thread was started and look forward to the interaction. I wish more cops would take personal responsibility, listen to FTL and disavow initiating aggression under the guise of "protecting society". I'd also like a pony for my birthday. ;D
[/quote]
No one likes the cops. I should have been a fireman.
But my goal isn't to be liked. It won't happen simply because I still think police are a necessary evil, and most of you think it's possible to have a successful community without any. OR is that an incorrect statement?
It is possible that there are decent cops,
http://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/Officer-Accused-of-Excessive-Force-on-Handcuffed-Person-116758134.html
but they don't tend to outweigh the bad ones.
Also I think this discussion is already getting deeper than "good cop, bad cop".
[quote author=MaineShark link=topic=4846.msg50364#msg50364 date=1298734501]
[quote author=OhCrapItsTheCops link=topic=4846.msg50362#msg50362 date=1298733863]I understand the concept of owning oneself, but society in its current state is a collective, with rights had by both the collective and the person.[/quote]
There are only individuals.
[/quote]
Which are the building blocks for larger organisms aka organizations. The strength of one is nothing in comparison to that of a hundred. Yes, we are individuals that can be independent, however, if we're pushing and pulling in a hundred directions, the net movement will be null. To peacefully co-exist, balanced cultural norms (the unwritten rules) must be established or there will be stagnation, decay, fighting, and death.
[quote author=MaineShark]
[quote author=OhCrapItsTheCops link=topic=4846.msg50362#msg50362 date=1298733863]It seems to me that there is too much cop hate out there since we are stuck enforcing the laws that 'protect' both the collective and the person.[/quote]
You aren't "stuck" doing anything. You choose to do those things. Every single time you act, that is a choice you make, for which you are fully and completely responsible.
[/quote]
Actually, in a sense, he is stuck. His income is derived from enforcing the laws (which he doesn't get to make, he's paid to be a "robot"), and when he's not doing so he's not doing his job. We know what happens when you're not doing your job, the administrators take notice and it leads to termination (cutting off your livelihood, pulling your plug). It's worse if there are dependents involved, because you're put in a position of making a choice of "them" or your dependents, a choice that has no good option.
[quote author=MaineShark]
[quote author=OhCrapItsTheCops link=topic=4846.msg50362#msg50362 date=1298733863]And when one or the other side doesn't like how those laws are enforced, then we have anger directed at the middle men- me and the other guys that wear a badge[/quote]
Yup. You're the ones doing the "enforcement." Some legislator can rant on, all he wants, but that doesn't impact my life, unless you and the other "middle men" convert his words into violent actions.
[/quote]
Yes, the cops are the "arms" of the state, the part that initiates force, but the head is what controls the arms; if you affect the head (house/courts), the arms will stop using force on you. If you're organization is stronger than the arms of the state, you could do something like what's going on in North Africa, but that's not the case here. Cops are put in a catch-22, which is why they are programmable. The "head" keeps them in that position, and therefore controls/programs them with laws/code.
People are not robots, so to speak, they have souls/emotions. This is why suicide/alcoholism/drug use (unhealthy behavior) is prevalent in occupations/lifestyles where people are paid/expected to be "robots".
[quote author=MaineShark link=topic=4846.msg50373#msg50373 date=1298751852]
1. "Society" is an illusion. It's no more real than unicorns. Just as with unicorns, we can still talk about it but, at the end of the day, only individuals actually exist. Only individuals actually have rights. Only individuals can actually be harmed.
2. What's your point? Did someone hold a gun to your head and force you to take that job? If you see someone doing something illegal, but which harms no one, and you fail to interfere, will someone commit violence against you? You choose to do whatever things you do.
3. I'm going to write down "all cops must pay me $20, whenever I go up to them and ask for it" on a piece of paper. Think it will impact your life?
4. I can make all the rules I want. Unless I am willing and able to enforce them, or hire someone to do it for me, they won't impact anyone else's life. Enforcement is the only factor that impacts anyone's life.
5. No, I don't. For starters, I cannot even walk into a court without giving up my most fundamental human rights, placing myself at the mercy of a man in a dress who can throw me in a cage at the slightest whim. Going on from there, the court system is fully corrupt. There is not a shred of justice present within those walls. The men in dresses, the prosecutors, the police, and even the defense attorneys collude to maintain the status quo, regardless of whether it is just or even legal. Destruction of evidence, coercion of plea bargains, and perjury are the norm in courts, not the exception.
6. Turn your blue lights on behind me. What happens if I don't stop? The threat of violence is quite imminent. No one would stop to talk to you long enough to even let you hand them the piece of paper, if the threat of violence wasn't right there, right then. If I do not comply, you will escalate the situation until someone's dead. The only time that doesn't happen, is when your victim de-escalates the situation by complying with your demands.
Joe
[/quote]
2. No one forces you to do something 'illegal' either. I took my job because it would be a secure job where I might be able to lock up some bad guys. If you choose to be a bad guy and get caught, who's fault is it?
3. I'd laugh at you, of course. Now I expect you to counter with, if you had a baseball bat and threatened me for the $20 would it make a difference?
4. I fail to see how the ENTIRE process doesn't effect you. One piece of the legal puzzle can not work without the others.
5. Now you are getting into conspiracy theory. The entire system is not corrupt. You may view it as unfair to your ideals, but you always have the option to take your fight to the next level. If you don;t like what the municipal judge does to you, appeal it.
6. I have red and blue strobes and drive an unmarked car, btw. We don't do blue lights, they are for first aiders and firemen. For the rest of your statement- you have to take personal responsibility for your actions. You know that whether or not you like it, you must stop for the police. You might view yourself as a 'free individual' but even so, you are using the property of the state or municipal government (ie roads) to go from one place to another. If you refuse to stop, then yeah, you are going to get into trouble.
[quote author=OhCrapItsTheCops link=topic=4846.msg50384#msg50384 date=1298754637]
you are using the property of the state or municipal government (ie roads) to go from one place to another
[/quote]
Now there's the real problem.
Dear Mr. Police Officer:
Have you ever read this article?
http://www.constitution.org/lrev/roots/cops.htm
It's pretty interesting, and the author is a lawyer.
[quote author=I've come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass link=topic=4846.msg50381#msg50381 date=1298753958]Which are the building blocks for larger organisms aka organizations. The strength of one is nothing in comparison to that of a hundred.[/quote]
Exactly my point. There's a saying that the tragedy of the modern world results from the fact that morality and decency do not increase with numbers, but the raw, brute power to use force, does.
[quote author=I've come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass link=topic=4846.msg50381#msg50381 date=1298753958]Actually, in a sense, he is stuck. His income is derived from enforcing the laws (which he doesn't get to make, he's paid to be a "robot"), and when he's not doing so he's not doing his job. We know what happens when you're not doing your job, the administrators take notice and it leads to termination (cutting off your livelihood, pulling your plug). It's worse if there are dependents involved, because you're put in a position of making a choice of "them" or your dependents, a choice that has no good option.[/quote]
He could get an honest job. Or even a less-dishonest job, like those three-card-monte guys in NYC.
[quote author=I've come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass link=topic=4846.msg50381#msg50381 date=1298753958]Yes, the cops are the "arms" of the state, the part that initiates force, but the head is what controls the arms; if you affect the head (house/courts), the arms will stop using force on you. If you're organization is stronger than the arms of the state, you could do something like what's going on in North Africa, but that's not the case here. Cops are put in a catch-22, which is why they are programmable. The "head" keeps them in that position, and therefore controls/programs them with laws/code.
People are not robots, so to speak, they have souls/emotions. This is why suicide/alcoholism/drug use (unhealthy behavior) is prevalent in occupations/lifestyles where people are paid/expected to be "robots".[/quote]
Cops regularly use force in direct violation of the law. Ergo, the laws ("head") do not control the "arms."
Joe
[quote author=OhCrapItsTheCops link=topic=4846.msg50384#msg50384 date=1298754637]
5. Now you are getting into conspiracy theory. The entire system is not corrupt. You may view it as unfair to your ideals, but you always have the option to take your fight to the next level. If you don;t like what the municipal judge does to you, appeal it.
[/quote]
For the most part, the court system is a sham and a cover for violence. Only occasionally is it used to go after people who have actually aggressed against others, and even then rarely rules to provide the victim restitution.
Also, to your point, in New Hampshire, class B misdemeanors and violations can only be appealed directly to the supreme court, and they want $180 to even consider your appeal. Or you can bend over and submit to them all your financial information and beg for a waiver of the fee. I'm not willing to pay a criminal system or bend over like that, so I CAN'T take the "fight" to the next level.
[quote author=OhCrapItsTheCops link=topic=4846.msg50384#msg50384 date=1298754637]2. No one forces you to do something 'illegal' either. I took my job because it would be a secure job where I might be able to lock up some bad guys. If you choose to be a bad guy and get caught, who's fault is it?[/quote]
That's the problem, though. Most laws have nothing to do with someone being "bad." I never walk out of my house without a gun on my hip; I'm all for using violence, when appropriate, to stop those who are actually harming others. But the overwhelming majority of laws involve no victim and no harm. Just for one example among thousands, a few years ago, the legislature decided to demand that gas fitters get licensed. All of a sudden, a perfectly-competent tradesman who has been doing his work safely for decades, is faced with the choice of laying out thousands of dollars for "training courses" that he knows enough to teach, and hundreds of dollars for permission to do his job. Unlike you, he has tens of thousands of dollars invested in equipment, so he cannot just change professions. So, he either pays up money he cannot afford, raiding his kids' college fund, or he works without a license, and you pull a gun on him, someday.
[quote author=OhCrapItsTheCops link=topic=4846.msg50384#msg50384 date=1298754637]3. I'd laugh at you, of course. Now I expect you to counter with, if you had a baseball bat and threatened me for the $20 would it make a difference?[/quote]
No, I don't need to counter. My point was made.
[quote author=OhCrapItsTheCops link=topic=4846.msg50384#msg50384 date=1298754637]4. I fail to see how the ENTIRE process doesn't effect you. One piece of the legal puzzle can not work without the others.[/quote]
You're absolutely right. So, if you refused to enforce any laws that did not involve an actual victim who was actually harmed, you could up and stop "the process" right there. That's the very point I've been making, is it not?
[quote author=OhCrapItsTheCops link=topic=4846.msg50384#msg50384 date=1298754637]5. Now you are getting into conspiracy theory.[/quote]
No, the "gold fringe on the flag" nonsense is conspiracy theory. What I said is just a description, and involves no conspiracy theory at all.
[quote author=OhCrapItsTheCops link=topic=4846.msg50384#msg50384 date=1298754637]The entire system is not corrupt. You may view it as unfair to your ideals, but you always have the option to take your fight to the next level. If you don;t like what the municipal judge does to you, appeal it.[/quote]
No, what I described is what actually happens. Getting convictions is all it's about; truth and justice be damned. And the best you can usually hope for is that, after you spend tens of thousands of dollars on an attorney, you might get the case dropped.
When's the last time you arrested a corrupt cop? You said yourself that you got sick of the unlawful things that were going on. Did you make any arrests? When's the last time you even heard of a cop getting arrested?
[quote author=OhCrapItsTheCops link=topic=4846.msg50384#msg50384 date=1298754637]6. I have red and blue strobes and drive an unmarked car, btw. We don't do blue lights, they are for first aiders and firemen.[/quote]
Whereabouts are you located? Most cruisers I've seen in NH have blues.
[quote author=OhCrapItsTheCops link=topic=4846.msg50384#msg50384 date=1298754637]For the rest of your statement- you have to take personal responsibility for your actions.[/quote]
I do.
[quote author=OhCrapItsTheCops link=topic=4846.msg50384#msg50384 date=1298754637]You know that whether or not you like it, you must stop for the police.[/quote]
Only because there are more of you than me, and you'll murder me, and probably my family, if I do not. That is the absolute, only reason that I "must" stop for you.
[quote author=OhCrapItsTheCops link=topic=4846.msg50384#msg50384 date=1298754637]You might view yourself as a 'free individual' but even so, you are using the property of the state or municipal government (ie roads) to go from one place to another. If you refuse to stop, then yeah, you are going to get into trouble.[/quote]
If it's paid for by my taxes, which I only pay because you'll kill me if I don't, then it's my property, not that of the "state or municipal government." Muggers don't own what they take - the property remains that of their victims.
Joe
[quote author=OhCrapItsTheCops link=topic=4846.msg50379#msg50379 date=1298753645]But my goal isn't to be liked. It won't happen simply because I still think police are a necessary evil, and most of you think it's possible to have a successful community without any. OR is that an incorrect statement?[/quote]
Any community must police itself.
But there's a world of difference between stopping, investigating, and apprehending those who commit actual violations of others' rights, and blindly enforcing whatever some men in dresses decree.
If I see someone attacking someone else, I have the right to intervene on the victim's behalf (including the use of violence). The same principle applies to any real crime. Whether done by amateurs or professionals, such defense of others' rights is perfectly acceptable.
But you don't defend others' rights, except rarely. For the most part, you violate others' rights, on behalf of your masters. If justice were the goal, then police would not have special powers - they would be able to enforce only the same things than any human being has the right to enforce, and using only the methods that any human being has the right to use.
Joe
I think most of us appreciate the idea of having people offering protection services in the marketplace, but you work for a violent monopoly, not a free market organization. I'd recommend that before you continue here that you take the time to read or listen to the audiobook for "The Market For Liberty". It explains how market protection would work: http://book.freekeene.com
Maineshark, don't you think you are going a bit overboard with your generalization of the court system and the idea that you will be killed for not paying a parking ticket? Sure, I'd bet you can google some guy killed that had something to do with a parking ticket, but it wouldn't be FOR the ticket itself. There would have been some kind of mitigating factor that led to some kind of physical confrontation between the guy and the police. The police don't just randomly kill people that don't pay their parking tickets.
The court system is there not only to collect fees from people caught up in petty offenses, but to protect the rights of people, both their body and their property. If you don't continue the fight that you feel so strongly about, then it's your own fault. If your principles aren't worth the 180 FRNs, then you can't really continue to argue for your position.
And yes, a lot of laws are there that don't immediately affect anyone else, but they have the potential to. For example, not wearing your seat belt might be a victimless crime. It's victimless until you hit someone head on and are thrust through your windshield and into the other person's lap. It's at that point that your personal 'freedom' might kill someone else. Laws might seem stupid and victimless, but they are there to prevent you from hurting someone else.
On the flip side, they are also revenue producers. We are all aware another reason for the laws is to produce money for the state. No one can deny this. And this is the reason they give me the power of discretion. It means I am not required to destroy people with inane tickets, but I retain the option to write a ticket.
I also began reading the history of police and the Constitution (whatever it's called) and it took me only a few paragraphs to find glaring factual errors, one of which is the police budget taking up most of the taxes. Maybe he found ONE instance this is true, but in real life, education takes up +50% of my tax dollars, and my PD is roughly 8%.
[quote author=OhCrapItsTheCops link=topic=4846.msg50384#msg50384 date=1298754637]
Now you are getting into conspiracy theory.
[/quote]
Have you ever arrested anyone who was charged with conspiracy?
Here in New Hampshire, conspiracy is a crime, at least on the books.
[quote author=OhCrapItsTheCops link=topic=4846.msg50397#msg50397 date=1298764552]Maineshark, don't you think you are going a bit overboard with your generalization of the court system and the idea that you will be killed for not paying a parking ticket? Sure, I'd bet you can google some guy killed that had something to do with a parking ticket, but it wouldn't be FOR the ticket itself. There would have been some kind of mitigating factor that led to some kind of physical confrontation between the guy and the police. The police don't just randomly kill people that don't pay their parking tickets.[/quote]
Because their victims defuse the situation by complying.
All I have to do is not comply, and they will murder me.
[quote author=OhCrapItsTheCops link=topic=4846.msg50397#msg50397 date=1298764552]The court system is there not only to collect fees from people caught up in petty offenses, but to protect the rights of people, both their body and their property.[/quote]
When? How many cases actually involve protecting actual people's actual rights? What percentage of the caseload involves real crime, where the perpetrators actually harmed a real person, and weren't driven to it by the police system? One percent? Less?
[quote author=OhCrapItsTheCops link=topic=4846.msg50397#msg50397 date=1298764552]If you don't continue the fight that you feel so strongly about, then it's your own fault. If your principles aren't worth the 180 FRNs, then you can't really continue to argue for your position.[/quote]
So, only people who have disposable income have the right to justice? I know plenty of folks, for whom $180 is their month's food budget. I guess paying Danegeld is more important than eating, eh?
[quote author=OhCrapItsTheCops link=topic=4846.msg50397#msg50397 date=1298764552]And yes, a lot of laws are there that don't immediately affect anyone else, but they have the potential to. For example, not wearing your seat belt might be a victimless crime. It's victimless until you hit someone head on and are thrust through your windshield and into the other person's lap. It's at that point that your personal 'freedom' might kill someone else. Laws might seem stupid and victimless, but they are there to prevent you from hurting someone else.[/quote]
I'd like to see even one instance where something that utterly ridiculous happened in reality. Even one. I'd bet that even the dubious claims about not wearing seatbelts actually saving lives have more support than that.
[quote author=OhCrapItsTheCops link=topic=4846.msg50397#msg50397 date=1298764552]On the flip side, they are also revenue producers. We are all aware another reason for the laws is to produce money for the state. No one can deny this. And this is the reason they give me the power of discretion. It means I am not required to destroy people with inane tickets, but I retain the option to write a ticket.[/quote]
Hence, the problem. If the laws were about justice, discretion would not be an issue. Any violation would involve a very real victim, and only the victim would have the right to say, "no, I'd rather not pursue this."
[quote author=OhCrapItsTheCops link=topic=4846.msg50397#msg50397 date=1298764552]I also began reading the history of police and the Constitution (whatever it's called) and it took me only a few paragraphs to find glaring factual errors, one of which is the police budget taking up most of the taxes. Maybe he found ONE instance this is true, but in real life, education takes up +50% of my tax dollars, and my PD is roughly 8%.[/quote]
I haven't read it, but even if it contains errors like that, the basic premise described in the abstract is correct: police forces are a modern construction, and we got along fine without them for many years. The conversion from "peace officers" to "law enforcement officers" is more modern still, and matches up with the worst increases in abuses.
I'd still like to hear about your experience with corrupt cops being brought to justice. You admit to witnessing corruptions; have you made any arrests?
I'd also like you to answer my question about your location. You're certainly welcome to have an opinion on goings-on in NH, even if you don't live here, but it would help in finding useful examples for discussion, if we knew whether or not you were located here.
Joe
[quote author=mackler link=topic=4846.msg50386#msg50386 date=1298757361]
Dear Mr. Police Officer:
Have you ever read this article?
http://www.constitution.org/lrev/roots/cops.htm
It's pretty interesting, and the author is a lawyer.
[/quote]
Great article. Thanks for the link. Now we return to this evenings episode of "just doing my job" .
Conspiracy to do xyz IS a crime here as well. I've arrested people for committing the crime, but have yet to charge anyone with conspiracy to insert crime.
I'm from NJ, Joe.
If you don't comply, you don't die. You will be taken into custody though, and based upon your physical resistance, the cops will use the amount of force appropriate to do their job. You are exaggerating the idea of violence. If you don't act like a crazed lunatic, you will be treated (or should be treated) with some respect.
Are you arguing physics of a crash? What happens when a 100lb person is unrestrained in the back seat and you (the driver) hit a brick wall? The unrestrained 100lb missile winds up crushing whatever is in front of it. This is a common occurrence. If you don't think that a driver can become ejected and turn into a missile for another driver, or a hazard for other motorists, then we can't go on from here. I'm sure you can find some pretty interesting crashes on youtube.
And I haven't arrested another cop. There has never been a need. What had been done was the result of a lack of training and misguided policy. It has since been addressed.
If you don't comply you don't die? Sometimes.
Why should anyone that has never hurt anyone be forced to comply?
Aren't people that initiate aggression the ones in the wrong?
Oh cool, nice to see you here. I hope you stick around. I would like to see more/better dialogue with law enforcement.
Try not to be too discouraged by the argument with MaineShark-- I gave up on arguments with him a long time ago. Some posters here are more open-minded than others.
[quote author=OhCrapItsTheCops link=topic=4846.msg50403#msg50403 date=1298768026]
Conspiracy to do xyz IS a crime here as well.
[/quote]
And enforcing that crime would require a conspiracy theory, wouldn't it?
[quote author=OhCrapItsTheCops link=topic=4846.msg50403#msg50403 date=1298768026]
If you don't comply, you don't die.
[/quote]
Oh really? I wonder whether John T. Williams would agree with you on that point.
http://www.kirotv.com/news/25690743/detail.html
I wonder if Oscar Grant would agree with you.
http://articles.sfgate.com/2009-01-04/bay-area/17196495_1_bart-officials-train-platform-oscar-grant
Or Aiyana Jones
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-20005427-504083.html
Of course, we can't ask any of those people anything, since they were all shot dead by police with no trial, and no conviction.
[quote author=OhCrapItsTheCops link=topic=4846.msg50403#msg50403 date=1298768026]
based upon your physical resistance, the cops will use the amount of force appropriate to do their job. You are exaggerating the idea of violence.[/quote]
I wonder if Chad Holley would agree with you that the idea of violence is here exeggerated, or Derek Holmes, or the 17-year old victim of a Seattle Government Security Agent.
[quote author=OhCrapItsTheCops link=topic=4846.msg50403#msg50403 date=1298768026]
If you don't act like a crazed lunatic, you will be treated (or should be treated) with some respect.
[/quote]
It is fair for me to understand you to mean that you don't believe that people with certain mental illnesses ("crazed lunatics") are entitled to be treated with "some" respect?
[quote author=OhCrapItsTheCops link=topic=4846.msg50403#msg50403 date=1298768026]
Are you arguing physics of a crash? What happens when a 100lb person is unrestrained in the back seat and you (the driver) hit a brick wall? The unrestrained 100lb missile winds up crushing whatever is in front of it. This is a common occurrence. If you don't think that a driver can become ejected and turn into a missile for another driver, or a hazard for other motorists, then we can't go on from here.
[/quote]
You've mentioned "hazard" earlier as a basis for enforcement, rather than other bases, such as "harm," or "damage," or "injury." It might be useful to explore this idea a little more. Would you deny that driving a car at all creates a hazard? Would you agree that driving should be outlawed, and that persons who operate motor vehicles should be arrested and prosecuted because they are creating a hazard?
I'm sure you're also aware that persons lose their government-issued driving privileges for a variety of reasons that are not safety-based, including not paying child support. On what basis do you justify taking the liberty and property of such a person as punishment for operating a motor vehicle who is demonstrably a safer driver than others who have government permission? Surely you'ne not claiming that someone whose permission-period expires, and who doesn't pay the permission-money to get a new permission slip, is any more of a hazard than he would be for having paid the money–as there is no safety-based condition of acquiring that permission once paid for? How do you justify imprisoning him for driving on the roads he helped to pay for?
There are how many cops in the US? There are how many incidents of crime that require use of force? If you take the amount of incidents of crime and police use of force vs your few examples, you will find that the number of accidental or unjustified shootings by cops is extremely, EXTREMELY low.
In the real world, we are given a fraction of a second to make a decision, that you without such responsibility believe is enough time to be accurate 100% of the time. Well it doesn't work like that. We are human, and sometimes mistakes are made. I'd love for civilians to get a taste of what we go through in a high stress situation like the examples you already provided and see for yourself exactly what happens with your body. Until it is you being the enforcer and holding a gun, you really don't have a right to justify a shooting based solely upon MSM propaganda. You should not be so simple as to take MSM 'news' and equate it to truth.
You are being very silly in using my 'crazed lunatic' comment as some kind of ridiculous indication that I don't treat the mentally ill with respect. You know exactly what I meant, and arguing just to argue is petty.
I enjoyed your little twist on the driving privilege, but at no point did I say that all laws were in place for 'safety reasons' only. But I can make the argument that an expired license IS cause for safety. When it's time for a renewal, a certain number of people will be retested. What happens if one of those people developed a brain injury and now has random seizures? What if this person refuses to get retested for his DL because of this condition, and drives on his expired license? What happens when this guy drives one day, has a seizure, drives into oncoming traffic, crashes through trees, and drops 15 feet off a retaining wall into a crowded parking lot?
Grasping at straws on my last example? Hardly. I investigated that accident this past July.