Electric Vehicles in New Hampshire

General Discussion
#1

I moved to Manchester a few months ago with my 2011 Brammo Enertia. Its an electric commuter motorcycle that gets me more attention than I’m used to. Ever since moving here, I’ve been looking for electric vehicles here, but I haven’t seen more than the occasional Tesla Sedan every once in a while. It not a surprise, I just enjoy the hunt.

I was talking to an electric bicycle builder at the Manchester car show last week end when I got to thinking about what kind of simple vehicles could be converted for service use. I heard about Telsa and Cummins getting into the electric semi truck market and I thought: that’s great since semis put out so much pollution, but what about the mid-range, intercity delivery market? I was mainly thinking of old, concentrated cities like Manchester with narrow streets and alleys.

I immediately thought of the Grumman LLV trucks that the USPS has been using for decades. Its a small, simple and lightweight Aluminum body truck that a person could probably get cheap since they stopped making them in 1994. The trouble is they have been really hard to get. USPS has been repairing them and has been slow to approve a replacement design for these. According to Fox news, USPS finally approved a replacement design last year and they are scheduled to start making them this year and, hopefully, start selling off the old LLVs

http://www.foxnews.com/auto/2016/09/23/us-postal-service-picks-finalist-to-build-next-generation-mail-truck.html

Apparently somebody already had the idea of making small, electric delivery trucks in California in the 1980’s, but of course the range was terrible due to the poor charge density of the Lead batteries they used. I think there is a market for it now with modern batteries and motors. I know I’m going to be keeping an eye out for one of these Grumman LLVs.

https://www.autoblog.com/photos/kurbwatt-electric-postal-van-ebay-listing/#slide-98116

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#2

I found another interesting article out the Grumman LLV’s specs here:

Their motors are amazingly inefficient for such given their 2.2L, 90HP size. Only 10-17 MPG?!!

I did some quick digging and you can get a small AC motor (about 9" X 14") with 118HP for about $4,500 with 88% efficiency. A hell of a lot better than the 25% max that combustion engines get.

http://www.evwest.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=8&products_id=469

#3

I kind of wonder how many Grumman are like this?

http://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&ccid=Nd4r%2F%2B2g&id=F8C0D98597147E60E07057305412582430627771&thid=OIP.Nd4r_-2gWyKMyBLU5VSCIgEsCo&q=Grumman+LLV&simid=608019765675232289&selectedindex=195&mode=overlay&first=1

#4

Here is another example of someone trying to an electric delivery vehicle before the batteries were up to snuff:

https://ixquick-proxy.com/do/show_picture.pl?l=english&rais=1&oiu=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm1.static.flickr.com%2F621%2F21397201728_4fd85d12ba.jpg&sp=30eb1710401f22f3fa6ee2ef9e3e1484

This is a 1980 Commuta-Car.
http://www.motortopia.com/cars/1980-commuta-van-postal-delivery-16761

I totally thought this was a Johnny Cab when I saw it.

#5

big rig trucks are not that bad at polluting when running right and considering what they can carry.
I don’t think Tesla will be first with hybrid. I think it will be Nikola.
How about a hybrid box truck?

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#6

Because hybrids are unnecessarily complex. Why choose a half measure anyway? You still end up using fossil fuels and you have to put up with all that extra weight from the conventional engine and fuel tank. Lithium ion batteries and combustion engines are heavy as hell and you have to deal with both.

Nikola? Is that another company named after Nikola Telsa?

https://ixquick-proxy.com/do/show_picture.pl?l=english&rais=1&oiu=https%3A%2F%2Fimage.slidesharecdn.com%2Fhybridcars-150628075817-lva1-app6891%2F95%2Fhybrid-cars-7-638.jpg%3Fcb%3D1435478356&sp=64ee68eac453673af143a72a8575f5d2

#7

Range, and refueling network.

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#8

Unnecessarily complex until you realize that whatever kind of fuel you’re using, long-haul trucks use a lot of it. I, too, think the Nikola will be the first. Long haul trucks might also be a good practical test case for hydrogen fueled electric.

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#9

I like using fossil fuels. If you can plug your delivery truck into a wall or put oil into it, then you have options.
I like the regenerative breaking and using diesel. :slight_smile:

#10

I’m a fan of ethanol, because of how easy it is to make, and how carbon neutral or even negative it is in the long run.
It’s especially great for local delivery/driving, because you’ll know where you can get your fuel. Or maybe you’ll make it yourself out of old unsold baked goods.

#11

Though fleet maintained, driving any ex-government vehicle has been a problematic experience for everyone I’ve known that’s owned one…including myself. And those didn’t have 25+ years of stop and go miles those LLV’s do on them. Have fun with that…

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#12

The problem with ethanol is that it’s totally not delivering on its promise, at least not in the US. maybe that’s a government subsidy problem, but it appears to be real.

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#13

Yes, it’s a subsidy problem, because government subsidizes the most horrible crops for ethanol. No one in their right mind uses corn to make ethanol on an industrial scale. It sucks :stuck_out_tongue:

#14

That’s what I hear. I’ve heard that sugar cane ethanol has been produced economically in Brazil, but I have not looked into details.

#15

Oh yeah, sugar cane is great, obviously, but there are other plants that, while not as awesome as sugar cane are still pretty good. Potatoes, sweet potatoes, sugar beets. Honestly, make a small marsh and grow cattails, and you’ll get a better ethanol yield per acre than corn. Corn just sucks.

#16

I use erhanol for cannabis extraction, and it isn’t cheap.

I buy 5 gallons at a time, and it is over $300. Even if you take out $100 for taxes, that is still $40 per gallon. And that is 190 proof corn grain alcohol. You need 200 proof for fuel.

http://www.culinarysolvent.com/store/c8/shop-food-grade-ethanol-5-gallons

#17

You don’t need 200 proof for fuel. 200 proof is impossible to get outside of a lab, because it will pull a tiny bit of moisture from any air it comes into contact with whenever you open your container. Not enough to prevent it from firing in an engine, but 190 is about the best you’ll get.
Also, food grade ethanol is more expensive because it requires different licensing by the federal government. You would never ever use ‘fuel grade’ ethanol for any sort of food grade application, because it’s cut 2% by volume with gas, or propane, or ether, or methanol, or a few other substances, the purpose being to render it non-drinkable.
And again, corn grain alcohol. Corn is a shitty ethanol crop. Very low yield compared to other crops.

look at this picture. E-85(85% ethanol) vs E-15(a mere 15% ethanol). Look at the prices. If ethanol is really so expensive, why is the higher concentration of ethanol cheaper? Does mixing in 15% gasoline somehow make the cost of ethanol production drop by a few orders of magnitude?

Screenshot at 2017-09-09 07-52-59

#18

Really, I’m not trying to troll you, dude, but that one’s easy: subsidies.

#19

There are a hell of a lot more subsidies for oil than there are for corn and ethanol :slight_smile:
Don’t see the military running around “stabilizing” countries that have vast underground stocks of corn whiskey, do you?
Anyway, if that was the case, why isn’t your food grade ethanol priced like that?

#20

You need 200 proof if you want to mix with petrol. It’s not that hard to get from 190 to 200 proof, but you can’t do it by distilling.

http://running_on_alcohol.tripod.com/id28.html

Late last year, Congress passed a tax extenders package that once again extended the Alternative Fuel Vehicle Refueling Property Credit, which provides a 30 percent tax break for gasoline stations or other facilities installing biodiesel or 85 percent ethanol (E85) blender pumps. The credit received a one-year retroactive extension for calendar year 2014. While Congress has signaled an intent to take a different approach than routinely extending this package of tax breaks each year, time will tell if any wasteful tax credits are ended later this year.

My guess on why E85 is cheaper than E15 is because if it was more, no one would buy it. It is priced by what people will pay for it. Is the price of E85 stable, or is it always a little less than E15?

Found this place with historical price data
National Average Fuel Price Chart at the bottom of the page
https://e85prices.com