Where Mark Blasphemes the FSP religion

There are several points I would like to make, but I will start with this: I have determined that there are 3 types of people that should consider a move to NH and the rest are largely wasting their time.

  1. US claimed libertarians that live in and already enjoy a frozen Hellscape. I don’t just mean snow, I mean a place were snow’s on the ground in Dec is likely not to thaw until May.

  2. A US libertarian that wants to run for office and spend many years fighting the leviathan from the inside and claims that they will somehow not be corrupted.

  3. A pugnacious and/or recalcitrant libertarian how will not be happy with just moving somewhere for freedom, they must fight the power! Heaven knows what they would do if they won, which they won’t.

NH is the right desitnation for many people, as my list shows. I think we do a dis-service to people by overstating things like “NH is the free-est place in the world”; “You’re not a real libertarian if you don’t move to NH” or my personal favorite “I can’t believe how blind Texans are to how statist the place that they live is.”

Please list other groups or types that might be added to my list.

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hah hah hi mark welcome back… 3 year hiatus wow. New Hampshire is cold? I didnt notice.

maybe also people who have a sense of history… places that are the best to live and have the most freedom historically…probably will continue to be so in the future. Roatan (sp?) sounds promising and has some history! maybe what has started there will grow with your help! We’ll see…but the history is pretty short at this point and the neighborhood is pretty violent. Costa Rica has proven itself for 80 years… but Roatan is so small, as is its liberty community, so vulnerable to the whims of the Honduran government plus D.C. to in some circumstances. We have to worry about Washington here but not Washington AND Honduras!

We keep hearing there is a better place than NH somewhere out there but then there is always some surprise problem later and the story changes. Maybe this will be different… for the first time in 50 years of move-somewhere projects. Well, the second.

I’ll probably be watching and raising concerns if something bad happens to you guys! hope you will do the same for us if vice versa.

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The history of Liberty in a place is sort of the thing I am trying to disabuse people of. If that is a good idea, then why don’t we all move to Boston? It has a greater history. It has Ole Iron Sides! Hell, I am starting my own 101 Reasons to Move to Boston for Liberty.

Yes, if you compare NH to other states, there are many things that make it a good place to live. Another thing I am trying to tell people is that some list doesn’t taylor well to YOUR life and your life is the only one that matters.

Utila is the name of the island that I am literally building a community, and I don’t want to mix the 2 threads. I will make one and you can take potshots there, but this is a thread about my passion: convincing people that they are wrong-headed about why they would move to a place.

You have leveled your best argument in the last paragraph “Oh how can we listen to Mark when he has changed his mind?” Firstly, no I have not. The US Marianas is the free-est place in the US. It was free-er than NH before Covid, during Covid (unless you were traveling to and from) and it is free-er now. I outlined the remoteness of the locale many times while touting it. It isn’t perfect, but if freedom is your goal, The US Marianas is a better choice than NH.

Second, I am already free. I am not burdened with the notion that I must sacrifice my life to the very tyrants that feed on lives. So many of y’all are. I don’t need or want to stay in a jurisdiction because it is free. I am just scouting for y’all. I went to Ghana last year. I didn’t do it because I wanted to find liberty, I did it because I wanted to see what it was like there (it’s awful).

Third, yes! Covid changed my opinion of things, including NH. The US Marianas scared me with its airport lockdown, but NH scared me with its restaurant lockdown. NH was like #23 on the list of free-est places during Covid. Do you really want to bring that up? I don’t know what we can learn from Covid, and would be happy to hear ideas, but I would not draw the conclusion that Florida is the free-est place or best place to live simply because it was quite a bit free-er than NH at the time, was basically neck-annd-neck with NH on the Fit50, and because property rights FL are better than in most places in NH.

If what you are saying is that you are in NH and you are going to make your best go of it, great. I hope the best for you all, but if you say that NH is the best or free-est anything, nope. I am going to correct you, because the FSP is a religion and religions need skeptics to get their message honed.

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New Hampshire is making amazing progress: New Hampshire shows how to advance freedom

Jason Soren’s idea was to get 20,000 libertarian activists to move to the state and then we would see some progress. That hasn’t even happened yet, and we are still doing great things.

Why discourage the 20,000 people who want to move here to help us and try this experiment out for real? I think this could be amazing. I don’t see a better political solution.

If you want to try another method that is easier for foreigners, that’s great too.

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New Hampshire has made some great progress, and I hope it continues.

New Hampshire is a great place for activists that want to see progress towards Liberty. Progress is good, it gives life meaning. Activists are in the Fighter category. I caution against feeding this personality trait though. It has many drawbacks. Fighting gives energy to whom you fight. With every move you teach your opponent things. Your opponent is the State. It pays people to fight you. Your task in NH is hercelean, and I don’t think it is said often enough.

I think y’all will see great progress, then, without the proper political solutions, all of it will fall away in the next generation. There is a huge problem of untruths, naivety and lack of planning for the FSP. These need to be addressed and simply aren’t being considered.

I will say it one more time, I am not discouraging people from moving to NH. I am trying to encourage the right people to move, by sharing my knowledge and judgement. The fact that y’all see any critique as discouragement is part of the problem. That is the untruth and naivety of which I speak. Many untruths have been spoken in the pursuit of movers, some by me, for which I feel I must atone. Moving is of great personal cost and so many supporters just don’t take that into account. “Just move, everything will be fine!”

My central thesis is fighting the MAN is inefficient. Building in a better place with a foundation of legal protection is a lot easier. Stop fighting and build.

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Mark, while I agree too much boosterism can be unhealthy, and I don’t like the idea that everyone must stay strictly “on message”, I confess I’m disappointed to read some of what you post here. Not because I think there’s no room for dissent or no truth to your points, but because it still seems objectively true to me that New Hampshire, taken overall, remains definitely one of the freest if not the freest state in the U.S., and thus one of the freer places in the world, with fairly good prospects going forward to build on what’s been achieved so far. And because I don’t see the FSP as having yet come so far, or being so doctrinaire or anything like that, to really need much in the way of cold-water-dumping at this point. I’m not a pledged mover myself, just a remote supporter at this point, so I don’t think I have any “religious” stake in saying this; it’s just my somewhat informed opinion.

You may be right that the Mariana Islands are freer; I don’t know enough about that narrow point to have an opinion. I do wonder whether the Feds could more easily exert their authority over a territory, in order to “crack down” on any nascent freedom or independence movement there, than they could with a state, and how practical a choice the islands are compared to the Shire in terms of things like job availability, moving requirements, etc. But regardless of such considerations, NH is the place that activists who were drawn to the idea behind the Free State Project picked. As much as consensus is possible with such an effort, it was our movement’s “consensus choice”. Surely that deserves our respect and support, at least in the absence of less existential threats than I hear you raising an alarm about. And Boston? Surely not! I hope your comment about “101 Reasons to Move to Boston for Liberty” was entirely a joke. In general I agree that “place-based” libertarianism is best avoided. Just because a place has a good libertarian pedigree doesn’t invest it with any permanent special quality; so much American nationalism is invested in such historical-parochial thinking, to the clear detriment of actual freedom today. I like that you appear to be considering possibilities in worldwide terms.

I don’t however see being a freedom activist as eitehr strictly about fighting or necessarily about sacrifice – it’s also about camaraderie, building community, supporting positive voluntary efforts, etc. But building a better legal foundation, which is key to making so much else possible, does inevitably involve political conflict with statism and its adherents. And because such fighting can involve more personal risk, I believe we should honor and support our activists who do stick their necks out and make what most would see as sacrifices in the fight for freedom, not belittle their (and your own past? present? future?) actions (implicitly or explicitly).

After all, there’s nowhere on Earth that’s truly free in more than a “Temporary Autonomous Zone” sense, nor are any of us completely free as individuals, at least politically. (Spirtually may be different; perhaps one can in a sense “find freedom in an unfree world” by cultivating personal enlightenment, and a soul operating at a high enough level could remain joyful even while being tortured in a dungeon). It may also be true that one is likelier to achieve more personal freedom in a practical sense by avoiding confrontations with the State. But avoiding the struggle for freedom doesn’t move humanity forward. And if your aim is to serve as a friendly/useful contrarian or “heretic” for the good of the movement, coming across as holier-than-thou (freer-than-thou?) may not be the most helpful or effective way to temper its most pollyanna-ish tendencies. I think you mean well and have important things to say, but your “3 types of people” remarks come across this way to me. Be well, and thank you for all you have done for freedom.

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Mark, I know what you mean by the problem of “untruths, naivety and lack of planning”. My first post on the NHExit group (A Pragmatic Path to Independence) was made because I saw a serious problem, of naivety, untruths, and lack of response to those untruths by the liberty community.

I didn’t move to NH because of the FreeState Project. I didn’t even find out about it until after I had made my decision to move. But, as opposed to the FreeState Project, I am here for the Liberty community, which includes many more people than just the FSP.

I will continue to try to find practical means of attaining Liberty, and to work out the details of what it takes.

Thank you for letting me know that I am not the only one who feels that many of us are here for rather vague notions of what we think NH is.

I wish you the best of luck wherever you are, and wish you happiness, and self-fulfillment.

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Starchild, before I begin, let me state that I hold you in the highest estimation. You have showed me important things and I don’t think you get the notoriety you deserve for your logic.

First, NH is a free place but only if you rate it on the Scope of it’s government, not the Will or Reach of it. Which is to say that if you look at The Freedom in the 50 States chart, you would think that NH was really free, but if you go to Utila Honduras, when I have recently begun management of a housing development and you ask “when was the last time a cop was here on this side of the island?” the answer will be “We can’t remember.” What is freer, a place that has comparatively fewer laws are a place where they build their own roads, leave their doors open and can’t remember when they last saw a cop?

The Marianas is freer than NH. I was there. Pot and gambling legal, prostitution: ignored, no sales or property tax and income tax is heavily discounted from the US. Can the FBI still show up? You betcha, but the local, state and feds where quick to cooperate both times that FTL has been raided, in NH, and what can the FSP do about it? Nothing, of course, because remaining in the US means you will never be free of the FBI and the Tax authorities.

NH is a great place to hang out with libertarians, but I have found in my travels that everyone wants freedom in some form but most don’t want to fight. I want to create a place where one doesn’t have to fight the statists (that are paid to fight me). I just want to build. The FSP is old technology. We have better ways now.

I believe that we, libertarians, have been asking the wrong question. The answer to where is the free-est place in the world is hard to get a good answer, but where can I be most free and happy, is much easier. One must save some money, do their best to earn online and the world is your oyster.

For me NH is just another place where I have to fear punitive FBI raids, high taxes, local officials make building expensive and take much longer, cars rust faster, one must spend big bucks for winter clothes, heat costs are staggering, people slip on the ice and break bones and patriotism blinds my friends to their statism.

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Thank you Mark, for your kind words. The esteem is mutual. And I appreciate your raising the issue of what question(s) libertarians are asking, or should be asking. “Check your premises”, as Russian-born philosopher Ayn Rand liked to say.

“Where can I personally enjoy the most freedom?” and “Where is the freest place in the world?”, both seem like perfectly legitimate questions to me. Although I believe what libertarians may really be getting at with the latter question, and which is perhaps a slightly better question, is, “Where are the best prospects for creating a sustainably libertarian society?”

A few years ago for instance (maybe still?), Hong Kong topped the list of economically free places in the world, and rated fairly well in terms of political freedom and civil liberties too. As subsequent events have showed however, failing to read the cards of the larger geo-political situation and betting on the sustainability of those statistics probably would have been unwise from either a personal freedom/happiness perspective or an activist “let’s build a free society” perspective, at least in the near term. (Long term, if there’s a revolution or major shift toward democracy and individual rights in China, as I expect to see in my lifetime, it might start looking quite good again.) But there may be places where one condition exists but not the other – either the political prospects for sustainably building a free society are relatively good but conditions for enjoying life are relatively poor (the moon or Mars in years to come?), or vice-versa (e.g. Disneyland or a cruise ship – pleasant, yet fundamentally authoritarian environments).

What I’m getting at here is that they are not the same question. Rand believed that “if you achieve that which is the good by a rational standard of value, it will necessarily make you happy”, i.e. that personal benefit and objective benefit are one and the same. I can understand the appeal of this idea, as one can relate to how astronomers long clung to the idea that planetary orbits must be perfect spheres, but for better or for worse I believe reality is more complicated and nuanced than that. I’ve met libertarians who’ve insisted that libertarian activism was rational from a selfish (in the positive Randian sense of the term) perspective, because they themselves would be happier in a free society, but I’ve never found the argument very convincing.

Although I’m not sure I could feel truly fulfilled or satisfied in life if I were to live out the rest of my days without being part of the struggle for freedom in some manner, I don’t think this is necessariliy rational (again in the Randian sense of everything being perfectly aligned), nor that it is true for everyone. While they sometimes happily intersect, living in freedom and fighting for freedom are two distinct and different things.

It’s a key libertarian (as well as objectivist) value that no one is obligated to sacrifice themselves for the sake of others. If you have found that you are tired of fighting statism, either at present – lots of people experience burnout from time to time – or henceforward, and just want to live your life wherever and however you feel you can be most personally free and happy, I don’t begrudge you this. You’ve already done more for the freedom movement than most will in a lifetime. I love tropical climates myself (as long as they aren’t too muggy/humid!) so I get how the Marianas or Utila, Honduras – which I’d love to hear more about and maybe visit at some point – can seem more attractive than New Hampshire.

Still, so long as the world is on the whole mostly unfree, I think anywhere that begins to show promise in terms of significantly liberating large numbers of people, will inevitably be subject to the State and its minions and abettors trying to put a lid on it. While “dropping out” to seek personal freedom and fulfillment somewhere that governments don’t (at present!) see much reason to care about may not exactly be “taking the blue pill”, neither can I see it as some innovative new long-term strategy to advance the freedom movement as a whole. I don’t think humanity has any hope of achieving freedom unless freedom always has people who are willing to fight for it.

You’re not obligated to prove that your own life choices are rational, or better for society-wide freedom – if you’ve decided they’re right for you, that’s enough. You don’t owe it to anyone to come up with a rationale of how they are supposedly good for the libertarian cause. I see no value to the movement in trying to make libertarian activists question the value or wisdom of their activist lifestyles. And from a personal benefit point of view, why try to tear down what you’ve helped build? Let’s honor, celebrate, and endeavor to support those on the front lines who are sticking their necks out for freedom, even if/when we choose another path for ourselves, and you can go your way knowing that whatever follows, you’ve earned a place in that pantheon.

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Last weekend I attended Prospera.HN 's Build Prospera event. Where about 30 people got together and brainstormed how to take the currently freest place on the planet, a ZEDE, and make it more free and more livable. ZEDE’s have their own courts (arbitration), cops, civil legal structure, zoning, banking and pretty much everything but immigration (to Honduras), military and criminal code. This is a huge leap forward, well past whatever my friends, and I mean it, lifelong friends, are doing in NH. At some point, and I think we are fast approaching that point, moving to a ZEDE will be the best thing you can do for liberty. Help build a free place and show the world that it works. I guess the next question would be, after that, once moving to a ZEDE is the best option, what does staying in NH and trying to retrofit the state indicate? Vanity, Pigheadedness, Patriotism?

I know that people see things differently than I and I know that my harsh style is often counterproductive, but I really do want liberty in my lifetime for any that will choose it, especially my friends.

“I freed a thousand slaves. I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves.”

I think that in NH, only inside the system activism works and inside the system activism is a life-sucking treadmill. I love you all and I hope you will take the time to watch what I am doing in Utila.

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Thanks for your reply Mark. I don’t know what a “ZEDE” is, but I’m guessing it’s an acronym for something like “Zone for Economic Development Enterprises”. However the very word “zone” reflects that they aren’t politically independent, just administrative zones under the ultimate control of some state, no?

Are you trusting a government or governments to keep their word about the degree of freedom they are currently allowing in such zones? If one or more of these ZEDEs were to take off and really start to prosper and attract lots of people, do you think the government(s) with jurisdiction will be content to just sit back, honor their agreements, and leave them alone? Or do you think they will seek to squeeze money out of them and exert control over them?

From my observations, the likely answers to those questions seem obvious. If/when the statist power/money grab comes, won’t you similarly find yourself in a “life-sucking treadmill” trying to “retrofit the state”, should you choose to resist and try to preserve the freedoms to which you’ve become accustomed? Thus I’m not seeing how what you’re talking about is ultimately different in a significant way from the freedom efforts in a place like New Hampshire.

I’m still up for hearing more about the places you believe show promise from a libertarian perspective however, as well as your thoughts on the differences between “outside the system” and “inside the system” activism.

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You pretty much guessed right on ZEDEs. Yes, of course they are zones and yes zones exist at the pleasure of those calling themselves The State, just like New Hampshire. If the FSP gets successful in NH, what is to stop the US or anyone else from declaring a state of emergency and just undoing all that is done there?

ZEDEs are protected by international law and treaty. If HN decides to use its monopoly on violence to violate the agreement, it has to go to The Hague for international arbitration. The likely outcome is billions in recompense. Not that that will be paid by the guilty administration, but there is a heck of a lot better protections for violating the ZEDE agreement than there is for the US violating the Constitution.

There will certainly be problems, we are seeing them now, but it seems to me that starting at some point very close to Freedom, protecting it with law garnered from centuries of mistakes and attempting to preserve that through 3rd party courts is a much better place to come from than “We’re the libertarians and we are here to free you from yourselves, if you don’t like it, leave!”

Perfection isn’t yet an option, but I can recognize a better system when I see it.

In like 2 months, I hope to be able to announce Project S, which will be even a bit free-er than ZEDEs.

This was just published, it is worth a read What Are the Zones for Employment and Economic Development in Honduras?

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This has always been a major concern of mine to the ZEDE plan. Mark says the Hague would save them from the Honduran gang dishonoring its agreements, but under what jurisdiction of the court?

Doesn’t look like anything would apply to an internal contract violation.

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ZEDEs and their agreements are included in a treaty with Kuwait, putting them under international treaty law.

If the govt of HN wants to destroy ZEDEs and doesn’t care about the consequences, they can certainly make life difficult, but this is the same thing that detractors said about the FSP 10-20 years ago. “If y’all are successful, they will just roll in tanks!” We made fun of that, but last year they rolled a tank into the front door of the building that we do Free Talk Live in. They did it under the color of law. I don’t see how you can stop this if those calling themselves the State are dead set. ZEDEs show that libertarians are at least welcomed by some and that they laid for us a foundation of law. All the FSP can say is “and we will use their democratic system against them!” Obviously, that isn’t going to get you to the point that ZEDEs are right now, in the next 2 decades. It may be true that somehow ZEDEs will be undone and not redone, but Project S is on the horizon and we hope to announce in like 2 months. That will be equally as free.

In the game of Leap Frog, the guy who was just lept over doesn’t lose. He is on the same team as the one who lept him. If he just sits and stews, then his team will lose the game against the others. All I ask is that my friends open their eyes and see that there is a better option. Maybe I am wrong, maybe I am crazy, but no one that has come to Utila has said that. Only people sitting in New Hampshire claim I will fail, but they can’t really nail down how, other than the State will stop you. Maybe they will, but what is not mentioned is that the State welcomed us, made our goals legal, gave us a path to our own civil law, our own cops, the legal ability to exclude them and anyone else, our own zoning, exclusion from most tax (there is a mandate for at least a 0.6% Income Tax on money generated in HN), gives us a level of sovereignty to be able to trade, bank and avoid international orgs from just telling us what to do and exempts us from tariffs and duties. Seriously, where is NH even on this playing field?! It is a joke to compare them. “Your supermodel girlfriend has a pimple on her chin and might leave you one day. You need to get a orangutan like me. She can never leave me and I’m saving up to get her plastic surgery.”

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I believe that there are many paths to free-er-dom. I’ve given some major thought to different degrees of freedom. Where I’m at, isn’t all that free. NH doesn’t appear to be free-er then where I am at, on the whole. However, I suspect there is something to be said about the number of people who prefer more-freedom to less-slavery in both places. In that, there is a difference, there are more liberty-oriented people in NH then there are where I am at, and those people desire community as opposed to those here, where they want to be a island, unto themselves.

I do not disparage either NH or Mark’s explorations, but I have my preferences. I find myself on the side of Mark, because I would prefer more-free over less-slavery. While there are many arguments against Mark and his explorations, I find the arguments against Mark, less than convincing.

Simply stated, many of the arguments revolve around “initiation of force” type arguments. NH gangs apply force arbitrarily, and select victims at will. Everywhere that Mark has been, the same thing can be said, gangs applying force arbitrarily, and selectively. This means that someone looking for freedom, real freedom, isn’t going to find it in either place. Realistically, there is no real freedom anywhere, only various levels of slavery. Freedom, therefore is always going to be relative.

Now, something I heard Mark talk about recently, that interests me, and maybe I heard what I wanted to hear, was living on the ocean. Again, freedom of different degrees applies. I agree that the in order for this strategy to work, you need the same type of the the FSP needed, bodies. Again, freedom, relatively speaking.

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Ocean Builders is the closest thing to making seasteading work. They are in Linton Bay, Panama. I googled them for you. Take a look. https://www.google.com/search?q=lyton+bay+panama+seasteading&oq=lyton+bay+panama+seasteading&aqs=chrome..69i57j33i10i160.14136j1j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

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Thanks for the info, Mark. I’ve seen this project before and at the time I was onboard with it. However, my experiences, like yours that have changed your opinion of living in NH, I am seeking something else too. I don’t think “seasteading” is for me, so please I as you to forgive me. It may be that the word itself is the problem, or my understanding of such is the problem.

I don’t want to stay in one location, because mobility is a form of defense against evil people. If evil people want commit evil acts against me, after they have selected me as a target of their evil, the next step is that they have to find me. If I set down a fixed place, it is easy for them to find me, and to bring their evil upon me. ‘Steading’ to me is just that, setting down a fixed place. I’ve chosen that to not be my goal for myself, but I watch in hope that it, eventually, will be successful for others.

Please, continue to keep me updated on the new discoveries you have found and keep those of us who are open to living some place free-er in the know.

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