Hey, my name is Skyler. I'm a 18 year old guy in Northern Virginia. I'm a senior in high school and I plan to move to Keene next year. For the past few months, I've gone from being a left-leaning republican to being a libertarian, to being an anarchist. I want to contribute to the establishment of a society without government, and I want to move to Keene to help do that
I also play clarinet, I sing as a Bass in my High school's top mixed choir, and I have a keen interest in history. Other than that, 11+ years of government schooling has been pretty useless to me, so I'm pretty excited to be done with it. I would like to go into a career in either software engineering, molecular biology/nanotech, or process improvement, but I have practically no knowledge or expertise in any of those fields yet.
Welcome!
FYI…
If you want to pursue software engineering Keene State College offers that major.
I dont know what the rules are for being considered in-state (the amount of time you have to be a resident is what i dont know) but its there as a cheaper option if you want to wait AND do software engineering.
[quote author=Skyler827 link=topic=4319.msg47864#msg47864 date=1290979711]
Hey, my name is Skyler. I'm a 18 year old guy in Northern Virginia. I'm a senior in high school and I plan to move to Keene next year. For the past few months, I've gone from being a left-leaning republican to being a libertarian, to being an anarchist. I want to contribute to the establishment of a society without government, and I want to move to Keene to help do that
I also play clarinet, I sing as a Bass in my High school's top mixed choir, and I have a keen interest in history. Other than that, 11+ years of government schooling has been pretty useless to me, so I'm pretty excited to be done with it. I would like to go into a career in either software engineering, molecular biology/nanotech, or process improvement, but I have practically no knowledge or expertise in any of those fields yet.
[/quote]
Great news - look forward to seeing you!
[quote author=DanBinnun link=topic=4319.msg47869#msg47869 date=1291000405]
If you want to pursue software engineering Keene State College offers that major.
[/quote]
That sounds like a monumental waste of time & money. If you want to pursue software engineering, get a computer and start reading. School is for learning stuff you can't teach yourself.
[quote author=mackler link=topic=4319.msg47882#msg47882 date=1291068162]
[quote author=DanBinnun link=topic=4319.msg47869#msg47869 date=1291000405]
If you want to pursue software engineering Keene State College offers that major.
[/quote]
That sounds like a monumental waste of time & money. If you want to pursue software engineering, get a computer and start reading. School is for learning stuff you can't teach yourself.
[/quote]
I'm sorry, but this is poor life advice to give to someone fresh out of school.
To get a paying job and start a career in an engineering field a degree is a requirement for hiring. Period.
You can be the smartest software engineer going, but if you dont have the degree, no one will hire you. Period.
Right or wrong, that's how it is right now. Telling someone to skip school because it's part of the system is complete idiocy, to the fullest.
If you want to support yourself and your family, regardless of governmental politics, viewpoints or feelings. Go to a university, study, get a degree. That's the only way to succeed in that field.
Please, don't give people such awful advice.
edit: In addition, there is a GREAT DEAL of software engineering methodology and practice that you cannot acquire from a book and self learning, you need guidance. Engineering is a difficult profession to self train.
-Dan
[quote author=DanBinnun link=topic=4319.msg47885#msg47885 date=1291074965]
I'm sorry, but this is poor life advice to give to someone fresh out of school.
To get a paying job and start a career in an engineering field a degree is a requirement for hiring. Period.[/quote]
If you want a job, perhaps. But if you want to work, and be years ahead of your age peers, it's great advice.
I'm not in the software field, but I've talked to plenty of people who are, who are mostly self-taught and doing quite well. Some of them are right here in the NH forums.
[quote author=KBCraig link=topic=4319.msg47886#msg47886 date=1291075441]
[quote author=DanBinnun link=topic=4319.msg47885#msg47885 date=1291074965]
I'm sorry, but this is poor life advice to give to someone fresh out of school.
To get a paying job and start a career in an engineering field a degree is a requirement for hiring. Period.[/quote]
If you want a job, perhaps. But if you want to work, and be years ahead of your age peers, it's great advice.
I'm not in the software field, but I've talked to plenty of people who are, who are mostly self-taught and doing quite well. Some of them are right here in the NH forums.
[/quote]
Um, sorry but software engineering is a career, working at walmart is a job.
Being that I myself, am an engineer, I would advise the OP to get a degree and secure the possibility of a career.
Money is necessary for survival,and you can just as easily self train while getting a degree - your angle is hollow and in general terrible advice.
[quote author=DanBinnun link=topic=4319.msg47885#msg47885 date=1291074965]
[quote author=mackler link=topic=4319.msg47882#msg47882 date=1291068162]
[quote author=DanBinnun link=topic=4319.msg47869#msg47869 date=1291000405]
If you want to pursue software engineering Keene State College offers that major.
[/quote]
That sounds like a monumental waste of time & money. If you want to pursue software engineering, get a computer and start reading. School is for learning stuff you can't teach yourself.
[/quote]
To get a paying job and start a career in an engineering field a degree is a requirement for hiring. Period.
[/quote]
Actually my first job out of school was as a computer programmer, and my degree had nothing to do with that. They didn't even check to see if I had graduated. All they cared about was whether I could code or not. This proves your claim that a degree is "a requirement" is untrue.
[quote author=DanBinnun link=topic=4319.msg47885#msg47885 date=1291074965]
You can be the smartest software engineer going, but if you dont have the degree, no one will hire you. Period.
[/quote]
As I said, I got hired without a CS/EE degree, so your statement that "no one will hire you" is factually inaccurate.
[quote author=DanBinnun link=topic=4319.msg47885#msg47885 date=1291074965]
Go to a university, study, get a degree. That's the only way to succeed in that field.
[/quote]
I'm all for going to a University and getting a degree…I've done so myself several times. But Kinda-Sorta College ain't no University, and like I said, if you're going to expend the effort required to get a degree, study something you can't learn any other way.
[quote author=DanBinnun link=topic=4319.msg47885#msg47885 date=1291074965]
edit: In addition, there is a GREAT DEAL of software engineering methodology and practice that you cannot acquire from a book and self learning, you need guidance. Engineering is a difficult profession to self train.
[/quote]
I'm curious what it is about software engineering that you cannot learn except by going to school. Keep in mind there is an infinity of "guidance" available for free on the interwebs. If there is such otherwise-unobtainable knowledge, I doubt they're teaching it a KSC. Try MIT or Dartmouth.
http://cs.dartmouth.edu/site-content/site/about-dartmouth-cs.php
[quote author=DanBinnun link=topic=4319.msg47887#msg47887 date=1291079523]
[quote author=KBCraig link=topic=4319.msg47886#msg47886 date=1291075441]
If you want a job, perhaps. But if you want to work, and be years ahead of your age peers, it's great advice.
[/quote]
Um, sorry but software engineering is a career, working at walmart is a job.
[/quote]
A "career" is a job with longevity. Or, a succession of jobs in most cases, often with frequent periods of unemployment. Perhaps your tech track has been atypical.
There are lots of unemployed people on the career track. There are lots of non-career people making money without "a job", but with plenty of work to do.
One of the worst things ever foisted upon American productivity and creativity was the Prussian notion of "a job" as "a career" for life, followed by "a pension".
People who can and will work, can always find paying work. They can't always find "jobs", but they can always find a way to get paid for working.
I'm new here also.
[quote]To get a paying job and start a career in an engineering field a degree is a requirement for hiring. Period.[/quote]
Depends.
I have no degree nor do I have a litany of college courses proclaiming I know something. I am currently a .net web developer for a company with a 20 man development shop running a corporate enterprise crm suite. Granted, my salary isn't as high as someone with a degree, but I've made 120k in the time it would take a person to get a degree and don't have a mountain of college debt. The difference in salary isn't that great and would take 10 years or more to make up the difference. Plus, my experience in working with a team, surviving deadlines with scant business requirements, and knowing how to play office politics to keep bad decisions from being acted upon is not something that one learns from a textbook.
The point is, if you are passionate about writing software, you can teach yourself with the aid of the internet. You can build a portfolio on your own. You may have to take a tech support job to get your foot in a private firm, but non government dependent companies are hungry for motivated, talented, people who are itching to prove themselves. Or, you can come up with a cool idea and shoestring your own startup. That is what I'm working on now, and if i have even small success, I'll move to NH self employed.
If you want to work for the government and be a mooch, then by all means you should get a degree.
[quote author=Helio link=topic=4319.msg48088#msg48088 date=1291434366]
I'm new here also.
[quote]To get a paying job and start a career in an engineering field a degree is a requirement for hiring. Period.[/quote]
Depends.
I have no degree nor do I have a litany of college courses proclaiming I know something. I am currently a .net web developer for a company with a 20 man development shop running a corporate enterprise crm suite. Granted, my salary isn't as high as someone with a degree, but I've made 120k in the time it would take a person to get a degree and don't have a mountain of college debt. The difference in salary isn't that great and would take 10 years or more to make up the difference. Plus, my experience in working with a team, surviving deadlines with scant business requirements, and knowing how to play office politics to keep bad decisions from being acted upon is not something that one learns from a textbook.
The point is, if you are passionate about writing software, you can teach yourself with the aid of the internet. You can build a portfolio on your own. You may have to take a tech support job to get your foot in a private firm, but non government dependent companies are hungry for motivated, talented, people who are itching to prove themselves. Or, you can come up with a cool idea and shoestring your own startup. That is what I'm working on now, and if i have even small success, I'll move to NH self employed.
If you want to work for the government and be a mooch, then by all means you should get a degree.
[/quote]
the ignorance in your post is astounding
1. at a '10 year' time table to make up the difference - lets do some quick math
a. assume a starting salary of 40k (very low end for a software engineer)
b. ignoring the increase in salary year over year versus percentage - assume a 5% annual raise for cost of living and performance (since you're obviously SO talented)
c. 5% of 40,000 is 2,000
d. 10 years * 2,000 = 20,000
So what youre saying is that 20k isnt a worthwhile amount of money - when it is in fact 50% of the starting salary.
Great job making a valid point.
your last statement is just childish and inflammatory - good way to discredit yourself. its not like the most brilliant minds in the world have PhDs - you know, doctors, physicists working at CERN…what do those idiots know anyways?
getting a degree is as much about proving to an employer that you are willing to better yourself, study and follow through with something as it is about the education. it fast tracks you into a salaried position with better pay, and it gives you something to hang your hat on, even if you want to pursue other interests.
so you can continue to pimp your horseshit line about not getting a degree being a great idea, but youre a moron.
/discussion
have a nice day
Degrees can be useful for certain careers, like Dan, who is an engineer, if I am recalling correctly.
For the rest of us, they are a waste of money. Thank goddess I left college after two years, though I never should have gone.
As someone with a number of advanced degrees, I will say that the most valuable thing I got from school job-wise was the personal connections that I added to my network while I was a student. If I had done everything the same but not got the piece of paper, then not much would have been different. Ultimately the only thing that each degree did for me was enable me to get the next one or to obtain a state-issued professional license. In other words, the only people who ever really cared whether I actually finished the degree program were the admissions committees of the next school and the local bar association. Employers may have liked that I went to school, but an ABD probably would have served me as well as a PhD. On the other hand I wouldn't have been talking to the employer in the first place if I hadn't been at school to make the connection.
I'm all for education. I love learning, and the temporary poverty of being a student was a small price for me to pay for the joy of the intellectual stimulation. But I have two strong recommendations: first, study something that you cannot learn on your own–and I do not consider computer programming to be in that category based on my own experience. Second–and especially if you're going to disregard my first recommendation–do not go into debt to pay for it. You can go to school for free. There are ways.
[quote author=FTL_Ian link=topic=4319.msg48158#msg48158 date=1291569016]
Degrees can be useful for certain careers, like Dan, who is an engineer, if I am recalling correctly.
For the rest of us, they are a waste of money. Thank goddess I left college after two years, though I never should have gone.
[/quote]
this is it
a degree in political science is by and large worthless
a degree in mathematics, physics or engineering is extremely valuable.
[quote author=DanBinnun link=topic=4319.msg48161#msg48161 date=1291570913]
a degree in political science is by and large worthless
a degree in mathematics, physics or engineering is extremely valuable.
[/quote]
Worthless or valuable by what standard? Income? There are other factors determining income besides your major. Would you doubt that the average income of people with poli-sci degrees from Harvard exceeds the average income of people with math degrees from Manchester Community College?
[quote author=mackler link=topic=4319.msg48162#msg48162 date=1291578918]
[quote author=DanBinnun link=topic=4319.msg48161#msg48161 date=1291570913]
a degree in political science is by and large worthless
a degree in mathematics, physics or engineering is extremely valuable.
[/quote]
Worthless or valuable by what standard? Income? There are other factors determining income besides your major. Would you doubt that the average income of people with poli-sci degrees from Harvard exceeds the average income of people with math degrees from Manchester Community College?
[/quote]
im not interested in arguing your extreme glenn-beck-esque examples and dealing with your nit picky disposition. you dont prove a point by making ridiculous comparisons, you just make yourself look like an argumentative moron with nothing better to do.
go away.
[quote author=DanBinnun link=topic=4319.msg48164#msg48164 date=1291580773]
im not interested in arguing your extreme glenn-beck-esque examples and dealing with your nit picky disposition. you dont prove a point by making ridiculous comparisons, you just make yourself look like an argumentative moron with nothing better to do.
go away.
[/quote]
In your case I would have recommended a good introductory course in social psychology and perhaps interpersonal communication theory. Oh, and English comp–just for minor stylistic issues. Employers tend to be nit-picky about things like apostrophes and capitalization.
[quote author=DanBinnun link=topic=4319.msg48156#msg48156 date=1291558847]
[quote author=Helio link=topic=4319.msg48088#msg48088 date=1291434366]
The difference in salary isn't that great and would take 10 years or more to make up the difference. [/quote]
the ignorance in your post is astounding
1. at a '10 year' time table to make up the difference - lets do some quick math
a. assume a starting salary of 40k (very low end for a software engineer)
b. ignoring the increase in salary year over year versus percentage - assume a 5% annual raise for cost of living and performance (since you're obviously SO talented)
c. 5% of 40,000 is 2,000
d. 10 years * 2,000 = 20,000[/quote]
I do believe you have entirely missed the premise.
The non-degreed person has a five year headstart, five years more experience, and (more importantly, in the ever-changing technology field), more current experience. In your calculations, you forgot to factor the $120,000 or so of student loan debt that the graduate has to subtract in order to compare incomes.
There's also another issue: in those technical jobs that insist on degrees, people with BS degrees are flunkies fetching coffee. So add another two years and another $50,000: your "employable" graduate starts out 7 years of income in the hole, plus about $170,000 in debt. Add interest on the debt, and the delta is going to be a half million dollars or more.
Even if he averages $20,000 a year more than the person who went straight to work, it's going to take close to 25 years to make up the difference.
Wow… such a passionate rush to advice in the forum! Here's mine (after 5.5 beers): You only live once - don't waste it. Learn, grow, love, laugh, and find a GREAT mate to share the Great Boggle of Existence. Have offspring and understand that this puts you in congruence with your nature, and that you are now filled with love and hope for a future beyond yourself…
Thanks for the excellent self-introduction.
VERY Best wishes!
~Dave in Wasilla, AKA "captainelectron"