Hello,
I'm new to the board, and a newish resident of Keene (I go to the college.) I'm interested in learning more about what the Free Keene movement stands for, etc. 
[quote author=peppamintdynamo link=topic=3874.msg43180#msg43180 date=1282781406]
Hello,
I'm new to the board, and a newish resident of Keene (I go to the college.) I'm interested in learning more about what the Free Keene movement stands for, etc.
[/quote]
Welcome!
I think you'll find that most folks here believe in the Non Agression Principle – that is, to initiate violence, or the threat of violence, against a peaceful person is wrong. As a result, most believe people should be free to make decisions about their own lives and property, so long as they don't harm others.
Most here seek solutions to societal problems based on voluntary action, rather than coercion.
Not everyone here agrees on the best tactics or strategy, of course ;).
I hope that clarifies abit.
Welcome - be sure to visit the New Here page on the site for a quick overview: http://new.freekeene.com
[quote author=tremendoustie link=topic=3874.msg43182#msg43182 date=1282782904]
[quote author=peppamintdynamo link=topic=3874.msg43180#msg43180 date=1282781406]
Hello,
I'm new to the board, and a newish resident of Keene (I go to the college.) I'm interested in learning more about what the Free Keene movement stands for, etc.
[/quote]
Welcome!
I think you'll find that most folks here believe in the Non Agression Principle – that is, to initiate violence, or the threat of violence, against a peaceful person is wrong. As a result, most believe people should be free to make decisions about their own lives and property, so long as they don't harm others.
Most here seek solutions to societal problems based on voluntary action, rather than coercion.
Not everyone here agrees on the best tactics or strategy, of course ;).
I hope that clarifies abit.
[/quote]
Thanks! I dig that. I do believe that large complexly structured societies require some give and take from the people involved, as we are a social species, and its in our nature to want to live in groups. But non-violence is definitely a very good cause to stand behind.
[quote author=peppamintdynamo link=topic=3874.msg43189#msg43189 date=1282784746][quote author=tremendoustie link=topic=3874.msg43182#msg43182 date=1282782904][quote author=peppamintdynamo link=topic=3874.msg43180#msg43180 date=1282781406]
Hello,
I'm new to the board, and a newish resident of Keene (I go to the college.) I'm interested in learning more about what the Free Keene movement stands for, etc.
[/quote]Welcome!
I think you'll find that most folks here believe in the Non Agression Principle – that is, to initiate violence, or the threat of violence, against a peaceful person is wrong. As a result, most believe people should be free to make decisions about their own lives and property, so long as they don't harm others.
Most here seek solutions to societal problems based on voluntary action, rather than coercion.
Not everyone here agrees on the best tactics or strategy, of course ;).
I hope that clarifies abit.[/quote]Thanks! I dig that. I do believe that large complexly structured societies require some give and take from the people involved, as we are a social species, and its in our nature to want to live in groups. But non-violence is definitely a very good cause to stand behind. [/quote]
Give and take is all well and good, Provided those interactions are voluntary. The moment someone says, "or else", 'society' goes out the window.
[quote author=Myrkul999 link=topic=3874.msg43199#msg43199 date=1282791695]
[quote author=peppamintdynamo link=topic=3874.msg43189#msg43189 date=1282784746][quote author=tremendoustie link=topic=3874.msg43182#msg43182 date=1282782904][quote author=peppamintdynamo link=topic=3874.msg43180#msg43180 date=1282781406]
Hello,
I'm new to the board, and a newish resident of Keene (I go to the college.) I'm interested in learning more about what the Free Keene movement stands for, etc.
[/quote]Welcome!
I think you'll find that most folks here believe in the Non Agression Principle – that is, to initiate violence, or the threat of violence, against a peaceful person is wrong. As a result, most believe people should be free to make decisions about their own lives and property, so long as they don't harm others.
Most here seek solutions to societal problems based on voluntary action, rather than coercion.
Not everyone here agrees on the best tactics or strategy, of course ;).
I hope that clarifies abit.[/quote]Thanks! I dig that. I do believe that large complexly structured societies require some give and take from the people involved, as we are a social species, and its in our nature to want to live in groups. But non-violence is definitely a very good cause to stand behind. [/quote]
Give and take is all well and good, Provided those interactions are voluntary. The moment someone says, "or else", 'society' goes out the window.
[/quote]
Well, I sort of agree with you there. I mean putting it in the context of my roommates and I, and how our house runs. We are like a little society. We all take turns using dishes. Some weeks I don't use as many dishes, but we have a system set up that means we take turns doing dishes, no matter what. Though some weeks I dont want to, because I havent used dishes, other weeks I have to use dishes and lots of them, so it evens out. If I just refused to do dishes when I'd used less one week, that would really mess up our system, and turn out badly for me on one of the weeks where I do use a lot of dishes, because we share the load. I could definitely ask my roommates to change the system, and I'm sure they'd be willing to discuss it, but I do live in a house with them, and if they both dont like the idea of changing it, I need to keep talking about it.
So, if a system doesnt work, or infringes on rights, I'm all for trying to change, but by talking it out, and going through positive channels. Also, because we are a part of a society with set rules, we have to think of other people as well as ourselves.
[quote author=peppamintdynamo link=topic=3874.msg43287#msg43287 date=1282839586]Well, I sort of agree with you there. I mean putting it in the context of my roommates and I, and how our house runs. We are like a little society. We all take turns using dishes. Some weeks I don't use as many dishes, but we have a system set up that means we take turns doing dishes, no matter what. Though some weeks I dont want to, because I havent used dishes, other weeks I have to use dishes and lots of them, so it evens out. If I just refused to do dishes when I'd used less one week, that would really mess up our system, and turn out badly for me on one of the weeks where I do use a lot of dishes, because we share the load. I could definitely ask my roommates to change the system, and I'm sure they'd be willing to discuss it, but I do live in a house with them, and if they both dont like the idea of changing it, I need to keep talking about it.
So, if a system doesnt work, or infringes on rights, I'm all for trying to change, but by talking it out, and going through positive channels. Also, because we are a part of a society with set rules, we have to think of other people as well as ourselves.[/quote]
You can have as many (or as few) rules as you like… as long as only those who consented are expected to obey them.
You and your roommates agreed to a dishwashing rule, which is fine.
The thing that "we" would object to, is if you dragged some guy in off the street and held a gun to his head, while ordering him to wash your dishes.
Talking is great, and maybe there's a way to convince that guy that he should help wash your dishes. Only problem is when some individual, or group of individuals, says that their decision is final, and all others must obey, "or else."
Joe
[quote author=MaineShark link=topic=3874.msg43288#msg43288 date=1282840025]
[quote author=peppamintdynamo link=topic=3874.msg43287#msg43287 date=1282839586]Well, I sort of agree with you there. I mean putting it in the context of my roommates and I, and how our house runs. We are like a little society. We all take turns using dishes. Some weeks I don't use as many dishes, but we have a system set up that means we take turns doing dishes, no matter what. Though some weeks I dont want to, because I havent used dishes, other weeks I have to use dishes and lots of them, so it evens out. If I just refused to do dishes when I'd used less one week, that would really mess up our system, and turn out badly for me on one of the weeks where I do use a lot of dishes, because we share the load. I could definitely ask my roommates to change the system, and I'm sure they'd be willing to discuss it, but I do live in a house with them, and if they both dont like the idea of changing it, I need to keep talking about it.
So, if a system doesnt work, or infringes on rights, I'm all for trying to change, but by talking it out, and going through positive channels. Also, because we are a part of a society with set rules, we have to think of other people as well as ourselves.[/quote]
You can have as many (or as few) rules as you like… as long as only those who consented are expected to obey them.
You and your roommates agreed to a dishwashing rule, which is fine.
The thing that "we" would object to, is if you dragged some guy in off the street and held a gun to his head, while ordering him to wash your dishes.
Talking is great, and maybe there's a way to convince that guy that he should help wash your dishes. Only problem is when some individual, or group of individuals, says that their decision is final, and all others must obey, "or else."
Joe
[/quote]
I think I'm a little confused on this point. Is the problem the enforcement of laws? In a perfect society, this of course wouldnt be an issue, because laws would be perfect, and also no one would break them, for any reason. But lots of people break laws, both fair and unfair ones. Consequences for ones actions is deeply inlaid in most societies. Sure there are definitely laws that aren't fair, and it seems stupid that they are being enforced, but we can't really pick and choose, because some laws are really important, and should be enforced, and there should be consequences. Well, I shouldn't say we can't pick and choose, but there are totally ways of changing those rules, especially if lots of people agree with you that they should be changed.
[quote author=peppamintdynamo link=topic=3874.msg43291#msg43291 date=1282840670]I think I'm a little confused on this point. Is the problem the enforcement of laws? In a perfect society, this of course wouldnt be an issue, because laws would be perfect, and also no one would break them, for any reason. But lots of people break laws, both fair and unfair ones. Consequences for ones actions is deeply inlaid in most societies. Sure there are definitely laws that aren't fair, and it seems stupid that they are being enforced, but we can't really pick and choose, because some laws are really important, and should be enforced, and there should be consequences.[/quote]
I don't necessarily agree that any of the laws should be "enforced" by the current injustice system.
If someone steals my car, ordering him to pay a fine to the State, then locking him in a cage and forcing me to pay to keep him there, doesn't exactly get me my car back. It leaves me worse off than if he had just been allowed to run free.
Justice would involve him making restitution for the harm he caused me (including whatever it cost to catch him).
[quote author=peppamintdynamo link=topic=3874.msg43291#msg43291 date=1282840670]Well, I shouldn't say we can't pick and choose, but there are totally ways of changing those rules, especially if lots of people agree with you that they should be changed.[/quote]
Are there? How many laws have anything to do with real harm? Half a percent of them? Less? The rest are all about power and control. Not protecting anyone; just creating privilege and concentrating power with the State and its thugs.
What ways exist to change that? Choosing between the Demoblicans and the Republicrats, who all stand for the same thing, isn't actually a choice. Do you want burgers from McDonald's, Burger King, or Wendy's? Sure, there are tiny differences between the three. However, at the end of the day, it's still burgers. No pizza, no sushi, no bagels, or any other real choice.
There's only one rule that is universal, and covers all situations: do not initiate force/fraud against others. Any laws that exceed that, are just power-grabbing nonsense, and don't deserve to be obeyed.
Joe
[quote author=peppamintdynamo link=topic=3874.msg43291#msg43291 date=1282840670]
I think I'm a little confused on this point. Is the problem the enforcement of laws?
[/quote]
I have no problem with the enforcement of laws against harming other persons or property. But, I do think the penalties should be based around restitution to the victim. Currently, we victimize the victim again, by forcing them to pay for three hots and a cot for the perpetrator, while they sit around idly learning how to commit worse crimes. It's really counterproductive.
[quote author=peppamintdynamo link=topic=3874.msg43291#msg43291 date=1282840670]
In a perfect society, this of course wouldnt be an issue, because laws would be perfect, and also no one would break them, for any reason. But lots of people break laws, both fair and unfair ones. Consequences for ones actions is deeply inlaid in most societies. Sure there are definitely laws that aren't fair, and it seems stupid that they are being enforced, but we can't really pick and choose, because some laws are really important, and should be enforced, and there should be consequences. Well, I shouldn't say we can't pick and choose, but there are totally ways of changing those rules, especially if lots of people agree with you that they should be changed.
[/quote]
But, I think men and women with consciences must pick and choose. Don't you agree that bad laws should not be enforced? I mean, I can think of many bad laws just in our history - slavery, jim crow, etc – I think any cop who choses not to enforce such evil laws is a hero. I want humans with consciences acting as peace officers.
[quote author=peppamintdynamo link=topic=3874.msg43291#msg43291 date=1282840670]In a perfect society, this of course wouldn't be an issue, because laws would be perfect, and also no one would break them, for any reason. [/quote]
The man who needs laws does not follow them, and the man who follows laws does not need them.
Here's the only law I think we really need:
No person has the right to initiate force, threat of force, or fraud against another person or their property.
It's simple, elegant, and it covers all the bases. Plus, even a 5-year-old can understand and follow it. Don't hit people, Don't lie to them, Don't steal from them, and Don't be a bully.