I live in the Keene area and started reading the forum because of the media reports. I wanted to listen to you without a filter. I'm not a Free State person but I think we have some common ground. Politically I'm an old school liberal with a libertarian streak. But there is plenty of nuance in my positions and I don't fit easily into one box or wear labels comfortably.
[quote author=IndependentCat link=topic=3963.msg44359#msg44359 date=1284093399]
I live in the Keene area and started reading the forum because of the media reports. I wanted to listen to you without a filter. I'm not a Free State person but I think we have some common ground. Politically I'm an old school liberal with a libertarian streak. But there is plenty of nuance in my positions and I don't fit easily into one box or wear labels comfortably.
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Welcome! 
You sound kind of like Commie Bob. I'm not sure Commie Bob was really a commie. I think maybe he was just a radical before it was possible to be a radical libertarian with a social life.
Welcome!
Thank you for the welcome
[quote author=mackler link=topic=3963.msg44363#msg44363 date=1284101062]
You sound kind of like Commie Bob. I'm not sure Commie Bob was really a commie. I think maybe he was just a radical before it was possible to be a radical libertarian with a social life.
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Well, I know I’m not and never have been a communist. My parents had friends who were members of the party and they were very good, very bright people, who were also members of the Hemlock Society. They ended their lives with dignity in extreme old age. What I remember most is that one of them invented a device he called a “blab off,” long before you could buy a remote for the TV with a mute button.
I also spent more than a month in China and got to see communism as it’s been applied in real life. All I can say is no thank you, none of that for me please. Human nature is such that communism doesn't make it to its utopian description and instead becomes authoritarian and anti-individual.
Tell us about this human nature thing.
[quote author=IndependentCat link=topic=3963.msg44359#msg44359 date=1284093399]
I live in the Keene area and started reading the forum because of the media reports. I wanted to listen to you without a filter. I'm not a Free State person but I think we have some common ground. Politically I'm an old school liberal with a libertarian streak. But there is plenty of nuance in my positions and I don't fit easily into one box or wear labels comfortably.
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Excellent choice. You certainly won't find the truth about liberty activists in the media. Welcome.
[quote author=TackleTheWorld link=topic=3963.msg44376#msg44376 date=1284128156]
Tell us about this human nature thing.
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Hello Tackle,
For the sake of clarity, my use of “human nature” here refers to its application in very large scale human governance. To hand absolute power to an individual (such as Mao) or governing body (such as the Chinese Communist Party) historically leads to an abuse of that power over individual freedom. Greater power and privilege become vested in those who control even when the goal is fair distribution of wealth and opportunities. China has a tradition of the sort of governance which dictates and there are many reasons for that, only a small part of which I understand. And they have changed a great deal since I was there years ago (the year before they retook control of Hong Kong.) I do not use a definition of “human nature” which is a one-size-fits-all we humans must follow our hard wired destiny. Even the need to express and receive love is not completely universal, though it comes close.
But this is as far as I’m going to go with this very complicated subject on the Welcome page. “Human nature” can be a very broad and debatable concept and if you would like to explore that on a different place in the forum I will add my opinions to the discussion.
Hi Ian,
The very first thing I learned from reading here is that you are very much individuals and not some group who all march together. Seems obvious, but definitely not the way you have been portrayed. Nice to meet you.
[quote]Human nature is such that communism doesn't make it to its utopian description and instead becomes authoritarian and anti-individual.
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That's certainly true. "Everybody" owns xyz, usually, in practice, means a few guys at the top own xyz, who then claim to act on behalf of "the people", but invariably act on their own behalf. Of course, in most communist scenarios those leaders are unelected, so it's even worse, but I think this problem also exists in the democratic system.
The best way to really let "the people" implement their will is to allow them to have control over their own lives and finances – and the desires of majorities, or large segments of the population, will emerge naturally. The minute you collect the power to make those decisions in a few individuals, you've created an opportunity for abuse. Calls were more than 20-1 against the bailouts, for example, but that didn't stop congress from handing our cash to their buddies. We are seeing, at the federal level, a demonstration of one of the reasons communism fails. Corruption, abuse, wastefulness, etc, always occur when you give one person or a few people the ability to play with the lives and finances of millions – and the concentration of such power inevitably attracts the worst, most power hungry individuals around.
I also think there's a moral component. I don't think majorities have a right to forcefully impose their will on the lives and property of innocent individuals, in order to make them a tool to their ends, any more than a majority of folks in my apartment block would have a right to go raid the apartments of the others, and take their stuff, or force them to live the way we want them to.
We need to stop imagining that blatantly immoral behavior – behavior we would recognize as immoral in any other context – is ok when perpetrated by a plurality, or a "representative" of a plurality. The same standards for decent human behavior, which we all apply in our private lives – don't steal, don't use aggressive force against innocent people, etc, need to be applied consistently.
There have been systematic moral mistakes made by human societies throughout history, usually with disastrous consequences. I think this is our systematic moral failing, and I think we are seeing the demonstration of its ultimate results at the federal level. I hope, as at the end of past societal moral failings, that we can reform ourselves, and move out of this better, and stronger for it.
[quote author=IndependentCat link=topic=3963.msg44375#msg44375 date=1284127996]
Well, I know I’m not and never have been a communist…
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I hope I didn't give the mistaken impression that I think you sound like a communist. I was just saying that you sound a bit like our friend Bob, who used to live in Keene. He's an old-time lefty activist, and, if pressed, would describe himself as a communist, even though he seemed to get along fine with freestaters. I don't actually believe Bob is a communist, so he got the name "Commie" Bob, sort of like "Big" Mike.