[quote author=Shane Maxfield link=topic=2518.msg29480#msg29480 date=1266279570]
ttie,
3. Easy one. I could support this, but again practicality and the human condition factors in. Would you have a big sign on your door that has a checklist of what you've subscibed for?[/quote]
There might be stickers, as they have for remote home security services – perhaps the security system would automatically call the police service I subscribe to. I'm not sure what a big sign would be for, but I suppose it could be done.
[quote author=Shane Maxfield link=topic=2518.msg29480#msg29480 date=1266279570]
If I was driving by and you hadn't subscribed to my service, do I just ignore your cries for help because someone's hacking you to death with a machete?
[/quote]
Of course not. In fact, I would intentionally choose to subscribe to a protection service which made it a policy to help those in immediate need – and perhaps provide free service to the truly poor.
[quote author=Shane Maxfield link=topic=2518.msg29480#msg29480 date=1266279570]
Now, everyone might be saying "You're a human being, of course you'd help!" Well, it could be dangerous, and besides the fact you don't have a contract with me, I could get hurt or killed helping you. According to "The Market for Liberty" (and this is pretty close to a quote) self-sacrifice goes against the very spirit of a voluntary society.
[/quote]
Well, I disagree with that quote – it sounds like some Randian ideas slipping in there ;). We absolutely should help others, even if it does not benefit us.
Frankly, though, the sort of person who would let a person get hacked to death because they're not a subscriber, is not someone I want to hire to help keep me safe. I think if a person behaved that way it would end up going against their self interest as well.
[quote author=Shane Maxfield link=topic=2518.msg29480#msg29480 date=126627957]
To me, that means the death of the concept of "duty," as far as public safety services go. Firefighters would be discouraged from putting out fires at houses they don't contract with, Private Security Guards same thing. As a cop right now I would risk my life (and have a few times) to save someone else, whether I know them or not. That trait would be discouraged in a voluntary society.
[/quote]
Certainly not. I think you're making everyone out to be super cold hearted, both the providers and the customers, when that's not the case. If a fire agency I subscribed to just sat there and let my neighbor's house burn right in front of me, I'd immediately be on my phone switching to another agency, and I'd get everyone I knew to do the same.
[quote author=Shane Maxfield link=topic=2518.msg29480#msg29480 date=126627957]
Accountability is less in a private organization,
[/quote]
It's just the opposite. What accountability are you talking about? Accountability to the people? In a free society, I can instantly withdraw funding and choose a competitor. THAT's accountability – not voting for someone who I hope may eventually make some minor change to the behavior the agency of which I disapprove.
Say a particularly malicious or incompetent city fire department let my or my neighbor's house burn. I would be forced to continue funding them, against my will. That not only destroys accountability, but is grossly immoral. Why do you think the public schools continue to fail, but only get more money? Why do you think FEMA is allowed to get away with gross incompetence? Do you think people find the services at the DMV effective? One look at the monstrous levels of corruption and waste in the federal government shows that government is far less accountable. These organizations would have been out of business a long time ago if competition were allowed, and if they were not funded by force.
[quote author=Shane Maxfield link=topic=2518.msg29480#msg29480 date=126627957]
just look at Blackwater[/quote]
Blackwater was funded by government coersion.
[quote author=Shane Maxfield link=topic=2518.msg29480#msg29480 date=126627957]
and, more recently, the private security guards who just stood around and watched as that 15 year old girl got the snot literally kicked out of her.[/quote]
Also funded by government coersion. And I quote, "Transit General Manager Kevin Desmond told The Seattle Times that the hired help followed 'the letter of the policy' while watching a kid get beat unconscious."
From AP:
The guards, who have standing orders to "observe and report," called police.
King County Sheriff's Sgt. John Urquhart said the guards were right to follow their training.
"If you're a bank teller and you do something other than give them the money, you're going to get fired," Urquhart said. "We don't expect civilians to take police action. In this case, it was a violent fight, and they were outnumbered by this pack of people 3-to-1."
Now, were I a Seattle citizen, I would want to switch to an alternative transportation company, out of objection to their horrendous policy. That would be accountability. If enough people did it, you can bet they'd change their policy fast. Instead, no matter how infuriated people are, they're all going to be forced to continue to fund Seattle Transit, and since competition has been stamped out, no alternatives exist.
[quote author=Shane Maxfield link=topic=2518.msg29480#msg29480 date=126627957]
Again, I could support this, but you might not like the way the end result works out.
[/quote]
The only real difference between a government agency and a private business is that the government agency is funded by force, and competition is outlawed. Do you think being funded by force, and lack of competition, increases accountability, or decreases it?
I think you could provide fine protection services – the interest in people's well being, and desire to protect people, that you express here would be requirement #1 as far as I'm concerned – but I want to subscribe because I support your services, not because I am forced to. And, if you stray from your purpose, and start acting immorally, or inefficiently, I need to have the right to switch to your competitor.
[quote author=FTL_Ian link=topic=2518.msg29550#msg29550 date=1266350976]
[quote author=Sovereign Curtis link=topic=2518.msg29549#msg29549 date=1266350770]
I must admit that I never had more hope inside me, since moving to NH, than when I read that response for the first time last night
(I have since re-read it over and over. Years of pessimism, right out the window!). I whole-heartily look forward to sitting down and continuing this discussion in person.
[/quote]
If I'm not working when it is scheduled, I'll be there. Brad J. is expected to be in town on 2/23, I think, FYI. Maybe he would be someone useful to invite along?
[/quote]
Nevermind, Brad is here on a Tue and Shane works Tuesdays.
Thats a bit fat HUGE Bravo ttie. I'd have to quote your last four responses to show all the points you made with which I agree.
[quote author=FTL_Ian link=topic=2518.msg29550#msg29550 date=1266350976]
[quote author=Sovereign Curtis link=topic=2518.msg29549#msg29549 date=1266350770]
I must admit that I never had more hope inside me, since moving to NH, than when I read that response for the first time last night
(I have since re-read it over and over. Years of pessimism, right out the window!). I whole-heartily look forward to sitting down and continuing this discussion in person.
[/quote]
If I'm not working when it is scheduled, I'll be there. Brad J. is expected to be in town on 2/23, I think, FYI. Maybe he would be someone useful to invite along?
[/quote]
I would think so.
You know, this could be so popular…we might want to do things a little differently here. After all, we're not trying to burn Ofc Maxwell out (again).
Perhaps we could limit the number of participants at this event (voluntarily, obviously) by auctioning or selling off spots, and agreeing (again, voluntarily) among ourselves that if we "win" we wont "enter" again for 30 days, or something.
The money raised can be split between a private charity, cause, etc supported by Ofc Maxfield, and one supported by, say, the highest bidder that week.
[quote author=Sovereign Curtis link=topic=2518.msg29555#msg29555 date=1266352464]
[quote author=FTL_Ian link=topic=2518.msg29550#msg29550 date=1266350976]
[quote author=Sovereign Curtis link=topic=2518.msg29549#msg29549 date=1266350770]
I must admit that I never had more hope inside me, since moving to NH, than when I read that response for the first time last night
(I have since re-read it over and over. Years of pessimism, right out the window!). I whole-heartily look forward to sitting down and continuing this discussion in person.
[/quote]
If I'm not working when it is scheduled, I'll be there. Brad J. is expected to be in town on 2/23, I think, FYI. Maybe he would be someone useful to invite along?
[/quote]
I would think so.
You know, this could be so popular…we might want to do things a little differently here. After all, we're not trying to burn Ofc Maxwell out (again).
Perhaps we could limit the number of participants at this event (voluntarily, obviously) by auctioning or selling off spots, and agreeing (again, voluntarily) among ourselves that if we "win" we wont "enter" again for 30 days, or something.
The money raised can be split between a private charity, cause, etc supported by Ofc Maxfield, and one supported by, say, the highest bidder that week.
[/quote]
That's a good idea, I agree - if Ofc Maxfield does. There should be something done so that dialogue can continue, without being overwhelming. And of course, helping charity is always a good thing.
Here's another idea for an alternative funding source for some roads. Put a chip into car radio receivers, that overrides current programming and plays an ad whenever a small roadside transmitter is passed. The great thing about this is, the ad could be specific to the location and time – e.g. "Try Milly's 3.99 breakfast special, a half a mile ahead to your left". If you subscribe to that road service, by paying a monthly fee or a toll, you could get a code that overrides the transmitters for that day or month.
This would eliminate the need for unsightly billboards, but still allow poorer folks to use the road without paying too many tolls or subscriptions (or any of the steep taxes and fees that they currently have to pay).
Don't limit the number of folks who should come…it's not the crowd that burned me out, I'll explain it when I see you.
I enjoy the two-way discourse, the more the merrier. We certainly won't agree on everything, but last time we agreed on some things and I (and probably Sturdy) came away knowing a few new things.
[quote author=Shane Maxfield link=topic=2518.msg29576#msg29576 date=1266365302]
Don't limit the number of folks who should come…it's not the crowd that burned me out, I'll explain it when I see you.
I enjoy the two-way discourse, the more the merrier. We certainly won't agree on everything, but last time we agreed on some things and I (and probably Sturdy) came away knowing a few new things.
[/quote]
Yeah, the attendance will probably be self-limiting to those who are interested, can afford to eat out, and those available at that time. If attendance becomes too much, Curtis' idea has merit.
Shane although I don't appreciate you arresting Andrew Carroll or the other pot smokers… I do appreciate you engaging with liberty activists via the forum!
Welcome back to the forum Shane. It's been a while since I've been able to chat with you online and the last time I saw you in person you were surrounded by activists at the doors of KPD.
[quote=Shane Maxfield]The Market For Liberty sounds great, until you inject the "human condition" into the formula.[/quote]
It may seem like an "obvious" question, but what does the "human condition" mean to you? People who defend the existence of the state (even those within the FSP advocating for "limited government") tend to assume that humanity sucks in general. That humans are violent and selfish to the point of using force to benefit themselves. I however, believe that the "human condition" is inherently positive. That human beings, being lazy and selfish, manifest the most benefit to themselves by leveraging their skills and trading with people doing the same. Me trading my widgets for your wombles is much more efficient than me killing you, stealing your wombles and then perpetually concealing this crime. Additionally, in the end of a voluntary transaction, I can come back for a SECOND order of wombles. So to me, the "human condition" not only is compatible with a truly free market, it's the very basis of it. So if you haven't done so already, would you share what you think is the "human condition" you see in conflict with a voluntary society?
[quote=Paraphrasing Shane Maxfield]I agree with the platform but not the strategy (or lack of)[/quote]
I've heard this arguement before and I think there's something to that. I don't think civil disobedience alone (nor politics alone) will cause the emergence of the voluntary society. However, I am curious from a non-confrontational position, what are you doing to bring about the change you'd like to see? If you disagree with the Drug War, are you advocating for that within the PD to change the minds of fellow officers? Do you testify at the State House? Write letters to the editor when a drug arrest is covered?
What steps do you personally take to bring about the changes you agree with?
[quote author=RidleyReport link=topic=2518.msg29579#msg29579 date=1266367130]
Shane although I don't appreciate you arresting Andrew Carroll or the other pot smokers… I do appreciate you engaging with liberty activists via the forum!
[/quote]
+1
Shane has always been very approachable and willing to engage in dialogue in person, even with a camera pointed in his direction. It isn't common for police to do this, and I appreciate it.
[quote author=Kevin Dean link=topic=2518.msg29582#msg29582 date=1266371354]
Welcome back to the forum Shane. It's been a while since I've been able to chat with you online and the last time I saw you in person you were surrounded by activists at the doors of KPD.
[quote=Shane Maxfield]The Market For Liberty sounds great, until you inject the "human condition" into the formula.[/quote]
It may seem like an "obvious" question, but what does the "human condition" mean to you? People who defend the existence of the state (even those within the FSP advocating for "limited government") tend to assume that humanity sucks in general. That humans are violent and selfish to the point of using force to benefit themselves. I however, believe that the "human condition" is inherently positive. That human beings, being lazy and selfish, manifest the most benefit to themselves by leveraging their skills and trading with people doing the same. Me trading my widgets for your wombles is much more efficient than me killing you, stealing your wombles and then perpetually concealing this crime. Additionally, in the end of a voluntary transaction, I can come back for a SECOND order of wombles. So to me, the "human condition" not only is compatible with a truly free market, it's the very basis of it. So if you haven't done so already, would you share what you think is the "human condition" you see in conflict with a voluntary society?
[quote=Paraphrasing Shane Maxfield]I agree with the platform but not the strategy (or lack of)[/quote]
I've heard this arguement before and I think there's something to that. I don't think civil disobedience alone (nor politics alone) will cause the emergence of the voluntary society. However, I am curious from a non-confrontational position, what are you doing to bring about the change you'd like to see? If you disagree with the Drug War, are you advocating for that within the PD to change the minds of fellow officers? Do you testify at the State House? Write letters to the editor when a drug arrest is covered?
What steps do you personally take to bring about the changes you agree with?
[/quote]
What Kevin said.
If you agree wih the idea of limiting/reducing governmen, there are many things people can do, instead of just sit on th couch. Sure, not everybody canmoe to NH, hold up signs, get arrested, or dedicate hours and hours each week to activism. But how long does it take to write an email/letter, make a phone call, educate people with the opportunity arises, etc. Not that long at all.
[quote author=Kevin Dean link=topic=2518.msg29582#msg29582 date=1266371354]
Welcome back to the forum Shane. It's been a while since I've been able to chat with you online and the last time I saw you in person you were surrounded by activists at the doors of KPD.
[quote=Shane Maxfield]The Market For Liberty sounds great, until you inject the "human condition" into the formula.[/quote]
It may seem like an "obvious" question, but what does the "human condition" mean to you? People who defend the existence of the state (even those within the FSP advocating for "limited government") tend to assume that humanity sucks in general. That humans are violent and selfish to the point of using force to benefit themselves. I however, believe that the "human condition" is inherently positive. That human beings, being lazy and selfish, manifest the most benefit to themselves by leveraging their skills and trading with people doing the same. Me trading my widgets for your wombles is much more efficient than me killing you, stealing your wombles and then perpetually concealing this crime. Additionally, in the end of a voluntary transaction, I can come back for a SECOND order of wombles. So to me, the "human condition" not only is compatible with a truly free market, it's the very basis of it. So if you haven't done so already, would you share what you think is the "human condition" you see in conflict with a voluntary society?
[quote=Paraphrasing Shane Maxfield]I agree with the platform but not the strategy (or lack of)[/quote]
I've heard this arguement before and I think there's something to that. I don't think civil disobedience alone (nor politics alone) will cause the emergence of the voluntary society. However, I am curious from a non-confrontational position, what are you doing to bring about the change you'd like to see? If you disagree with the Drug War, are you advocating for that within the PD to change the minds of fellow officers? Do you testify at the State House? Write letters to the editor when a drug arrest is covered?
What steps do you personally take to bring about the changes you agree with?
[/quote]
Kevin,
No doubt I’m biased because I deal with the violent / selfish / greedy / dishonest most of the time. “Human condition” means, to me, that we aren’t perfect, that we aren’t always reliable. It means we can be violent / selfish / greedy / dishonest, and there is a percentage of we the people who have not developed ethics or morals. There are many who are in “it” just for themselves and damn everyone else. If they see you drop a wad of cash, they’ll take it. If they see your car door is unlocked, they’ll go in to take your GPS. There are plenty of people out there who, knowing there are no more police to protect or investigate crimes regardless of my status, and knowing that I cannot afford a private service to protect me, WOULD kill me or commit other crimes against me solely to take my “stuff.” I see these types fairly often.
I agree, however, that the majority of people are good. I’m just saying that SOME of the widget-less and womble-less would do their best to take advantage of whatever system (or lack of one) is established.
As for things I’ve done / do…I’ve written several letters to our local rag’s opinion page, I participate in online things on occasion, I communicate my opinions to politicians on local, state and national levels (multiple members of my family does this as well). I also talk to my co-workers and family members, and I’m honest about my opinions with them. Believe me, the whole drug-war conversation was awkward.
Why aren’t I up in Concord lobbying for the legalization of marijuana? Because smoking pot isn’t a priority for me and I don’t have “a dog in that fight.” If I had a relative or friend who needed it for cancer for example, I would be more active about that. Other than medical cases, pot smoking seems to be a pretty voluntary, leisure-type thing. There are places where the legalization effort has been pretty successful, and those successes aren’t because a group of people smoked pot in the open just to zing the locals…the efforts are successful because groups have strategized and applied mature plans to garner the support of the communities they live in to get their representatives to legislate according to their will.
Next time you see me, please wade in an introduce yourself…
[quote author=Shane Maxfield link=topic=2518.msg29870#msg29870 date=1266799298]
[quote author=Kevin Dean link=topic=2518.msg29582#msg29582 date=1266371354]
Welcome back to the forum Shane. It's been a while since I've been able to chat with you online and the last time I saw you in person you were surrounded by activists at the doors of KPD.
[quote=Shane Maxfield]The Market For Liberty sounds great, until you inject the "human condition" into the formula.[/quote]
It may seem like an "obvious" question, but what does the "human condition" mean to you? People who defend the existence of the state (even those within the FSP advocating for "limited government") tend to assume that humanity sucks in general. That humans are violent and selfish to the point of using force to benefit themselves. I however, believe that the "human condition" is inherently positive. That human beings, being lazy and selfish, manifest the most benefit to themselves by leveraging their skills and trading with people doing the same. Me trading my widgets for your wombles is much more efficient than me killing you, stealing your wombles and then perpetually concealing this crime. Additionally, in the end of a voluntary transaction, I can come back for a SECOND order of wombles. So to me, the "human condition" not only is compatible with a truly free market, it's the very basis of it. So if you haven't done so already, would you share what you think is the "human condition" you see in conflict with a voluntary society?
[quote=Paraphrasing Shane Maxfield]I agree with the platform but not the strategy (or lack of)[/quote]
I've heard this arguement before and I think there's something to that. I don't think civil disobedience alone (nor politics alone) will cause the emergence of the voluntary society. However, I am curious from a non-confrontational position, what are you doing to bring about the change you'd like to see? If you disagree with the Drug War, are you advocating for that within the PD to change the minds of fellow officers? Do you testify at the State House? Write letters to the editor when a drug arrest is covered?
What steps do you personally take to bring about the changes you agree with?
[/quote]
Kevin,
No doubt I’m biased because I deal with the violent / selfish / greedy / dishonest most of the time. “Human condition” means, to me, that we aren’t perfect, that we aren’t always reliable. It means we can be violent / selfish / greedy / dishonest, and there is a percentage of we the people who have not developed ethics or morals. There are many who are in “it” just for themselves and damn everyone else. If they see you drop a wad of cash, they’ll take it. If they see your car door is unlocked, they’ll go in to take your GPS. There are plenty of people out there who, knowing there are no more police to protect or investigate crimes regardless of my status, and knowing that I cannot afford a private service to protect me, WOULD kill me or commit other crimes against me solely to take my “stuff.” I see these types fairly often.
I agree, however, that the majority of people are good. I’m just saying that SOME of the widget-less and womble-less would do their best to take advantage of whatever system (or lack of one) is established.
As for things I’ve done / do…I’ve written several letters to our local rag’s opinion page, I participate in online things on occasion, I communicate my opinions to politicians on local, state and national levels (multiple members of my family does this as well). I also talk to my co-workers and family members, and I’m honest about my opinions with them. Believe me, the whole drug-war conversation was awkward.
Why aren’t I up in Concord lobbying for the legalization of marijuana? Because smoking pot isn’t a priority for me and I don’t have “a dog in that fight.” If I had a relative or friend who needed it for cancer for example, I would be more active about that. Other than medical cases, pot smoking seems to be a pretty voluntary, leisure-type thing. There are places where the legalization effort has been pretty successful, and those successes aren’t because a group of people smoked pot in the open just to zing the locals…the efforts are successful because groups have strategized and applied mature plans to garner the support of the communities they live in to get their representatives to legislate according to their will.
Next time you see me, please wade in an introduce yourself…
[/quote]
Not to mention you're also on this forum participating in dialogue, which is a great deal more than most other law enforcement are doing, not to mention probably some activists as well.
[quote author=Shane Maxfield link=topic=2518.msg29870#msg29870 date=1266799298]
those successes aren’t because a group of people smoked pot in the open just to zing the locals…[/quote]
Sure, some locals were upset, but many locals were in support of those. In fact, the supermajority of participants in the 420s were not liberty activist Keeniacs.
The locals who felt "zinged" by those events are likely the ones who are generally offended by the Free State Project. They'd feel zinged no matter what the activists did. Anytime civil disobedience is done, you can pretty much count on status-quo supporters to get rankled.
P.S- the activists that now live in the Keene area are locals. ;D
[quote author=Pat K link=topic=2518.msg29930#msg29930 date=1266898852]
P.S- the activists that now live in the Keene area are locals. ;D
[/quote]
Mostly true. There are still a few activists that are not locals, though.
[quote author=Shane Maxfield link=topic=2518.msg29870#msg29870 date=1266799298]
No doubt I’m biased because I deal with the violent / selfish / greedy / dishonest most of the time.
[/quote]well if you worked somewhere else, your coworkers might be less violent, more unselfish, not so greedy, and honest.
[quote author=FTL_Ian link=topic=2518.msg29926#msg29926 date=1266890616]
[quote author=Shane Maxfield link=topic=2518.msg29870#msg29870 date=1266799298]
those successes aren’t because a group of people smoked pot in the open just to zing the locals…[/quote]
Anytime civil disobedience is done, you can pretty much count on status-quo supporters to get rankled.
[/quote]
the reason they openly disobey the law is not to zing local people … it is to zing and hopefully change the local government
I'm disappointed the dinner idea never came about.