I think that having guns in a classroom stifles learning. It can create too much of a tense atmosphere. I believe the school officer is equipped well enough to handle most problems and backup is minutes away. One thing I would suggest is that there be better procedures for such an attack. This does not mean there should be any more weapons than there already are but simply that teachers and staff are trained in simple self defense and negotiation. Just an idea
Teaching school staff self-defense and negotiation tactics is a great idea.
Guns in class causing tension is not a factor of the guns themselves, but of society's view of them. If guns were more accepted as tools of defense, and not aggression, there would be no tension at all. I know I was comforted, rather than frightened, when I saw a gun strapped to my uncle's hip at a recent thanksgiving.
I personally have no problem with guns but I think it is a long standing view in society that guns are evil that will not be changed until "Gun Misfires" etc. headlines are eradicated completely.
It's this view that the open-carry activists are attempting to defeat. a man standing by the side of the road picking up trash is no more dangerous if he is wearing a holstered pistol than if he were not. Simply more able to defend himself, and those around him.
I can understand that but I think you should voice your opinions instead of demonstrating them in front of people who are more likely to be afraid than to listen to you. Try for example carrying a brightly colored prop gun (like the ones used in training exercises) out in the open and if you still feel the need, get a smaller gun and a concealed weapons permit for your own and others safety while not raising negative emotions. Doing this is more likely to get people's attention and get them to ask you questions and which point you can explain to them you do choose to carry a gun and why. This will make you seem more responsible in the public eye.
While I agree that carrying a bright orange prop gun would get attention… I wouldn't open carry specifically to get attention, but should someone notice that I am armed and peaceful, I would hope they ask why I am armed. Carrying concealed while also carrying a prop gun is not, IMO, a wise decision. Should the need arise to actually use the weapon, I may instinctively grab the prop gun… and the last thing I hear will be the bad guy's laughter.
I just think carrying one would get people to say "Hey that guy's got a toy gun." And you could then tell them thats not all you're carrying and explain to them your values and why you feel it is appropriate to carry a weapon. And as for grabbing it by accident… i guess you'd just have to get used to it haha but that is a risk
[quote author=MC_Cals link=topic=3828.msg43247#msg43247 date=1282802996]I just think carrying one would get people to say "Hey that guy's got a toy gun." And you could then tell them thats not all you're carrying and explain to them your values and why you feel it is appropriate to carry a weapon. And as for grabbing it by accident… i guess you'd just have to get used to it haha but that is a risk[/quote]
I could get a nearly identical result by wearing the real one openly, with the added advantage that, should someone call the police, when the officer arrives, he'll be on my side. It's perfectly legal to open carry, IIRC (and I'm very possibly wrong, DO NOT take this as advice, check first!) with or without a permit, as long as you're legally allowed to have the gun. I don't know, but I think a cop might object to me wearing a toy gun to "freak the norms".
As to the second point… Not a risk I'm willing to take, especially since the life I would be protecting (or failing to) would not only be mine, but potentially my spouse and child as well. I don't mind dying… but I don't want to go down knowing I failed.
I admire your loyalty. Thank you for keeping a cool head and not calling me an enemy because I don't 100% agree with you. I just think that in some public situations it would provoke more inquires as to what your ideas are if you carried a harmless thing that represents your ideas as well as your item of choice for defense. Speaking from experience, I know that a lot of people are scared by open weapons when they don't know if the person has beliefs like yours or is just doing it to look macho.
I used to listen to Dave Champion a lot. I don't agree with all that he has to say, but I do recall a story of his about visiting - someplace… I think it was a garden or something WHAT it was isn't as important as WHERE it was - out in the desert (He lives in Nevada)… thing was, he had not taken into account that he had gone so far out into the Nevada desert that he had reached California desert. People were giving him funny looks, and were obviously frightened of him. He didn't get it until he was on his way back… perhaps he noticed the sign this time. Dunno. Point is, in Pahrump, Nobody minded the gun, because, as is fitting for a town with a firearms training facility, they were used to it. Back in California, people are used to only seeing guns on the hips of police or stuffed into the waistbands of gang-bangers. A private citizen carting one around confuses them. The same issue is what we have to deal with today… People are used to seeing guns only carried by people that might hurt them. (regardless of your opinion on the matter, the first instinct people have when they see a police officer is, "Oh crap. Am I doing anything that would attract his attention?")
A large, private, segment of the population that goes about armed as a daily course of events would actually help officers, by removing the fear of a holstered gun, and reducing the amount of nerves the average person has when approached by a cop. If your greengrocer hasn't shot you yet, there's no reason to think the cop will, either.
Also, I don't ask that you agree 100% with me. I just ask that you not act or support actions contrary to the following statement:
"No person has the right to initiate threat of force, use of force, or fraud against another person or their property."
Essentially, don't hit people, don't steal, don't bully, and don't lie. All stuff we (should have) learned in Kindergarten.
That statement was admirable, and i fully agree with you on the last part. I just have slightly different views of how society views guns and how that should be changed
[quote author=holy_canole link=topic=3828.msg42672#msg42672 date=1282414019][quote] I'm not going to even try to address the rest of this… but, He never said anything about legality or illegality… Only that the owner of a piece of private property has decided that on his or her property, there should be no guns allowed, or that only persons approved by him/her are allowed to carry guns… Anyone disobeying his decision is trespassing, and can be removed. Thus, A private school that doesn't allow guns except by their hired security guards, would prevent a school shooting by simply removing the person or the gun from the property.[/quote]I know, but we were discussing what would happen if guns were made totally legal in all places, and a school did not have a law against guns.
Or, even to get away from the 'private property rules' issue. What if a man was running down the street (public property) towards a school with a gun, obviously intending to shoot up the school. The law enforcers would not be able to do anything to apprehend the gun from him before he reached school property, at which time, it may be too late.[/quote]
That's not a "what if."
You just described NH, pretty closely.
No law against guns in schools.
No license required to buy a gun.
No background check required to buy a gun (just the Federal nonsense, and that only applies if you buy from a dealer, not a private sale).
No license required to carry a gun openly.
No license required to carry an unloaded gun, concealed (stick the magazine in your pocket, and you're good).
No minimum age on carry, as long as you have parental consent.
If you want to carry both loaded and concealed, you pay $10 for a license, which is a single-page form that doesn't require fingerprints or photographs or anything else of the sort. Just name, address, a few simple questions, and three references (name and address, only). They have a maximum of 14 days to issue the license, and can only deny it if you have a felony or domestic violence conviction (or similar) on your record. If they can't search all the records in that time, too bad for them; they're legally required to issue it. If they don't comply, the individual officer who failed is personally liable for court costs (which gives them an incentive to behave), in addition to being able to sue the city or town.
There's no database of those who have licenses, as each town maintains its own records. Creating a database would be illegal on the part of the State, so officers don't know if someone has a concealed-carry license when they do traffic stops and the like.
There's also no minimum age on licenses (again, with parental consent). I'm aware of several pre-teens who have them.
Somehow, despite being the flat-out most gun-friendly and most heavily-armed state in the most heavily-armed country on this planet… how many school shootings have happened here?
Joe