[quote author=Coconut link=topic=6121.msg58097#msg58097 date=1330005212]
[quote author=NHfarmgirl link=topic=6121.msg58092#msg58092 date=1329971763] You see, getting arrested multiple times for the same infraction is, by definition, insane. (Doing the same thing repeatedly and expecting different results.)
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I wish people would stop quoting this over-used cliche. I have never seen a medical or accredited definition of "insane" that comes anywhere near this.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/insane
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/in-therapy/200907/the-definition-insanity-is
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I agree.
I think that statement is an adaptation of an Einstein quote. However, he was speaking within the context of scientific experimentation – pointing out that objective facts will yield the same results.
In the case of interactions with other humans, of course, one CAN and SHOULD expect different outcomes since so many live non-objectivist lives. (ie courts, cops, the State).
I resonate with some of NH Farm Girl's concerns.
Due to my brain wiring or upbringing, I am by nature a non-confrontational person. I have tried to be a manager and discovered I was incapable of being the "Boss Type." As a sovereign individual, my desire is to be left alone and to be allowed to produce; but I also recognize that I can't do that in a vacuum (and especially not within a Police State).
However, I think we can all strike a balance in our quest for statelessness by working together within our areas of expertise or preference.
While I would probably be a mumbling, gibbering idiot in front of a judge, I can nevertheless support people like Ian in several ways – be it financial or, in my case, through research and writing support.
Maybe Farm Girl doesn't find satisfaction in protesting, but she can certainly farm the hell out of her land and provide her colleagues with tasty, nutritious produce at a reasonable price – in a free market free of ineffectual regulation.
In short, this isn't a EITHER/OR model when it comes to how we each approach our shared vision of either statelessness or a stripped-down govt.
We have to approach this with a BOTH/AND mentality.
Let Ian do Ian stuff and Farm Girl do Farm Girl stuff and benefit from their strengths while we also compensate for our weaknesses.
Meanwhile, Argus will work in the background…hopefully using his skills as a writer, editor, researcher, planner, (or mixing gin-and-tonics at a social event) to contribute to the vision.
**(BTW…I'm not trying to play Farm Girl and Ian "against" each other. I'm only using them as examples of two different, yet equally beneficial paradigms).
Just my two cents (or Shire Silver coins).
Cheers,
Argus
@owljake: Thank you for all of the compliments. I get the impression we have lots in common and I look forward to exploring that avenue further. Let's make sure we do that. I'm very much in favor of forming a "community" (regardless of geographical proximity, a community just the same) wherein everyone "gets it" and is willing to work TOGETHER toward a common goal. In this case, I mean primarily sustainability with a survivalist "twist" based on the barter system and the premise that one hand will wash the other. Back in the good 'ol days, that's what a community was all about. We've lost sight of that and it's time to bring it back. I'm considering gathering a group of like-minded folks to come sit down once or twice a month (or whenever the mood strikes) to discuss how to go about this. Anyone who has an interest in sustainable living is encouraged to PM me their contact information. Long distance folks could even contribute via Skype if the interest is there.
@Tao Anarchy: I think you're right about that being an adaptation of an Einstein quote, and I agree with you on it's intended meaning. That being said, what/who are these folks actually fighting through civil disobedience? Is the ultimate goal not to abolish the laws which make victimless crimes illegal? If that's the case, then committing victimless crimes (which are still illegal) and blaming the police for being jerks is a tad counterproductive, or at the very least, a waste of time. Maybe I'm not understanding the objective though. The way I see it, the police are doing what they've been told is their job. Whether their job is right, wrong or indifferent is really beside the point and not within the limits of their control. How they go about doing their jobs, well, that is where human interaction comes in. Some are better at it than others and some are just in it for the "power" behind the badge. But again, would there even NEED to be any interaction at all if someone hadn't provoked them in the first place? Isn't it possible they would LOVE not to have to arrest someone for something as silly as refusing to remove their hat in a courtroom? They probably have better things to do too and this sort of behavior probably pisses them off and frustrates them. As a result, each needless interaction contains an undercurrent of that frustration. There has to be a better, non-confrontational, more productive way. I don't know what way that might be, but whatever is being done now simply isn't working. As for regular, day-to-day interactions with people, ABSOLUTELY the outcomes should be different. Communication would be pretty pointless if that weren't the case and I agree wholeheartedly with that statement.
**And it appears you echoed much of what I said above in your more recent reply. lol I actually love it when I discover I'm preaching to the choir. Makes me feel a little less nuts. 
[quote author=NHfarmgirl link=topic=6121.msg58235#msg58235 date=1330536610]
@Tao Anarchy: I think you're right about that being an adaptation of an Einstein quote, and I agree with you on it's intended meaning. That being said, what/who are these folks actually fighting through civil disobedience? Is the ultimate goal not to abolish the laws which make victimless crimes illegal? If that's the case, then committing victimless crimes (which are still illegal) and blaming the police for being jerks is a tad counterproductive, or at the very least, a waste of time. Maybe I'm not understanding the objective though. The way I see it, the police are doing what they've been told is their job. Whether their job is right, wrong or indifferent is really beside the point and not within the limits of their control. How they go about doing their jobs, well, that is where human interaction comes in. Some are better at it than others and some are just in it for the "power" behind the badge. But again, would there even NEED to be any interaction at all if someone hadn't provoked them in the first place? Isn't it possible they would LOVE not to have to arrest someone for something as silly as refusing to remove their hat in a courtroom? They probably have better things to do too and this sort of behavior probably pisses them off and frustrates them. As a result, each needless interaction contains an undercurrent of that frustration. There has to be a better, non-confrontational, more productive way. I don't know what way that might be, but whatever is being done now simply isn't working. As for regular, day-to-day interactions with people, ABSOLUTELY the outcomes should be different. Communication would be pretty pointless if that weren't the case and I agree wholeheartedly with that statement.
**And it appears you echoed much of what I said above in your more recent reply. lol I actually love it when I discover I'm preaching to the choir. Makes me feel a little less nuts.
[/quote]
Farm:
Thanks for the reply. You seem quite passionate about your life purpose and articulate. I commend you.
Point 1: My motive in replying to the previous quote was simply to expand understanding of where that idea (vis-a-vis insanity and repetition) came from (Einstein quote). I wasn't really commenting beyond that…just wanted to point out the context.
Point 2: As I pointed out earlier, I am not a confrontational type. Nevertheless, my understanding of civil disobedience and protest is that the final game plan is to draw public attention to an injustice and thereby convince the populace to demand the repeal of said injustice.
In cases like that, one goal is to open up the conflict and injustices to a wider audience.
Witness, for example, the pro-democracy protests in the Middle East. The protester may hope that the acts of disobedience will then become an icon and rallying flag of their cause.
For example, we all immediately recognize the image of the lone protestor in China holding back the tank. One could argue about the effectiveness of that protest but it's undeniable that China now has more freedom.
Point 3: I do agree that there are some police officers who may not want to engage with protesters and that's the point: The goal of the protest is to cause unrest and discomfort among the enforcers.
It forces them to check their premises and we know of examples of soldiers/police joining protests.
I often wonder how that one soldier reacted back in the 60s when that woman placed the flower down his gun barrel. Did it change him when he saw how iconic that image became? I don't know.
So, while you and I may be destined to sit out the protests and "do our thing" (which is as valid as protesting), I think it's in our best interest to at least offer tacit support to the movements (whenever they are rational and valid).
Although I don't live in NH, I thoroughly support the Shire community and I know you will offer a significant contribution to its health and growth.
Given the earlier reference, I think I should close with an Einstein quote (and one from Uncle Henry David):
"Never do anything against conscience even if the state demands it." ~Albert Einstein
"If… the machine of government… is of such a nature that it requires you to be the agent of injustice to another, then, I say, break the law." ~Henry David Thoreau, On the Duty of Civil Disobediance, 1849
Cheers,
Argus
Argus,
I apologize for that tangent- I see what you meant now. I stand by my conviction that civil disobedience is not the answer, but to each his own. As I told Ian way back, I'm glad someone has the balls to just stand up for something. People are complacent these days and that sort of passion (even misplaced passion) is severely lacking in today's society. I think you and I are on the same page and, if you ever head up this way, you are more than welcome around my campfire anytime. Thanks for your insight. =)
-Farmgirl
[quote author=Tao Anarchy]
We have to approach this with a BOTH/AND mentality.
[/quote]
+1! 
Well, there's always Slab City… anyone familiar? "The Last Free Place"… It's a bit of a hike though, and it looks hot… but at least it's a dry heat! 
A lot of interesting personal stories about these folks that live way off the grid:
http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,2105597,00.html
http://articles.ivpressonline.com/2011-12-31/community-meetings_30577918
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18563_162-57343234/slab-city-a-desert-haven-for-recessions-victims/
http://articles.latimes.com/2011/dec/18/local/la-me-slab-city-20111218
http://vagabonders-supreme.net/SlabCity.htm
Gosh, I've been wanting to get my kids a little exposure to meth-heads and 120-degree summers! This sounds perfect! lol Thanks, but I think I'll go ahead and pass.
[quote author=NHfarmgirl link=topic=6121.msg58237#msg58237 date=1330540146]
Argus,
I stand by my conviction that civil disobedience is not the answer, but to each his own.
-Farmgirl
[/quote]
I suppose it depends on what the questions is? Lulz.
[quote author=owljake link=topic=6121.msg58246#msg58246 date=1330574137]
Well, there's always Slab City… anyone familiar? "The Last Free Place"… It's a bit of a hike though, and it looks hot… but at least it's a dry heat!
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Isn't that the place featured in Into the Wild?
Oh yeah it is: "The venue came out in Sean Penn’s 2007 movie “Into the Wild”"
Interesting.
A while back, a group of Transcendental Meditation buffs had a falling out here in western NC and abandoned their planned community which consisted of a few common buildings and cabins. I often thought that it would have made an interesting possibility for a voluntaryist movement but it ended up selling at auction to some Bible college — but only for about $1.5 M…which is pretty cheap for hundreds of prime acres of Blue Ridge Mountain land. You get about 20+ people together and $1M is not so much.
Argus
[quote author=NHfarmgirl link=topic=6121.msg58248#msg58248 date=1330574879]
Gosh, I've been wanting to get my kids a little exposure to meth-heads and 120-degree summers! This sounds perfect! lol Thanks, but I think I'll go ahead and pass.
[/quote]
We've got plenty of meth heads up here (from what I'm told), but just figured I'd offer up one (of several) suggested places if people are looking to live unoppressed and unstifled by the things they most have issues with around here.
Some say "if you don't like it here, go to Canada" or some other country. There's really no reason for that, we have plenty of little places like this that don't run on FRNs, that come together for discussing ways to live free lives, etc.
Hey guys, first time posting here in the forum (after the introduction post). I agree quite a lot with what farmgirl has been saying, and I think the main focus here should not be pissing off cops and recording them, but instead on making as many friends in the area as possible, basically getting them to trust US more than they trust the state. Shouldn't be too hard. The people who signed the bearcat petition would be a good place to start. I'd also suggest having more meet ups and brainstorm sessions, maybe something like several per week for people already in Keene, and then have one weekly meetup for outsiders that want to drive and/or people who are interested in freedom/anarchy, but dont consider themselves part of the FreeKeene movement yet.
@JamesJackson: My thoughts EXACTLY. Let's do that! Summer is coming (much sooner than anticipated) and I'm looking forward to NUMEROUS discussions about all of these topics around my fire pit with a few cold ones. If you're not into that scene, come help me weed one of my gardens and we'll chat then. Seriously- it's time to brainstorm and I want to meet some of you folks face to face. This forum is great, but it would be wonderful to hear what you all have to contribute to the conversations that already happen where I am. Inbox me and we'll put something together.
I see a lot of "end of the world", "end of america", etc. I myself even battled these tendencies for a while.
I'm a strong believer in a collective conscious. I came to the conclusion that the proper way to deal with it is to delete it. Delete the end of the world from your vocabulary. Don't look into "tea leaves" whether it comes from politics, or other things. Don't prepare for the worst.
Delete it.
Of course the facts are out and we're in a tough situation with how things are. I'm not saying ignore it.
Delete it.
Only if you do that, can you begin to think positively. If the consensus is that it's the end of the world and/or the country is going down the tubes, well you're going to get your wish. Especially when you tell the state that you don't want the world to end or the country to go down the tubes. Are the powers that be currently doing things to prevent stuff you don't want to happen?
Do people fantasize about our country going down the tubes so they can go hide out in the woods? In an odd way they are. I don't think anybody WANTS that to happen, but it's an option "if it does happen".
It's comparable to yourself being a deer standing in the middle of the road looking at a semi with his brights on going "please don't hit me, I don't want to die" except that we're a lot smarter life form than the deer are. Another example would be still hanging out on earth a 5 billion years from now fighting over all the gold in the earth before the sun turned into a red giant and the world REALLY ended because we never decided to go into space to mine it and therefore never had the development we needed to leave when the time came. (One asteroid that was actually once a candidate for a doomsday asteroid contains about 20 billion dollars worth of gold in a chunk the size of 33 km by 13 km by 13 km.)
Why did people make so much stuff and have so many improvements the last century? The "end of _____" garbage wasn't in their vocabulary. Now it is in ours, and in my point of view that above all else is what's bogging us down. Most of us here can point to books, various points in history, etc but every day is different.
The ball is in our court, all of us are connected in a way that has never happened before. We know more than we've ever known. Media is relatively cheap. Our phones are now 1/3 of the speed of the whole computing power of PIXAR circa 1995.
I think that a multi-faceted approach is the right way to go about it. Some may like activism, and that's perfectly fine. Personally I prefer subversion. You can only fight something in a way that they understand. Even if it takes using propaganda in a way that's useful, without any information at all. I got into libertarianism because I was a young 13 year old republican raised idealistic anarchist that liked punk music and the self-assembled voluntary internet of the 90s full of hackers and IRC and just happened to stumble on an old documentary from the late 70s that happened to have a scene with Nolan himself. I then a few years later happened to wander into Barnes & Noble one day looking for something to read and found "hmmmm. some person named Ayn Rand. WTF is this?" I can probably be safe to assume that a lot of other people have had similar accidental experiences.
I think that it would be beneficial if the movement even took a page out of the work of Edward Bernays and work into the subconscious rather than direct action, but that's just my take. I don't think that "RAWR POLICE GUN RIGHTS FORCE COERCION WHATEVER SOAPBOX" is enough. You have to have the micro-movements too. I think that a lot of active people look to the 60s to try to replicate that but what they don't realize is all of the micro instances that made up that movement. Height Ashbury, Woodstock, and the protests were great, but Andy Worhol, all of the social experiments, the moon landing, and the other collective things that made up the way they were feeling at that time dwarfs the activism and other achievements.
What happened that began the end of the Vietnam protests? Kent State. Nobody wants to mirror that. The art and other things/ideas highlighting the overall last time "the man" was destroyed persists the most. There were a lot of problems, a lot of "solutions" depending on who you are, and a lot of new problems too. We have what we have now though because of it.
The end is a crappy way to go.