Announcing the "negative reputation" usergroup.

[SeriousSplinters]

HAHA!

[FTL_Ian]

There are no bylaws here.  Only forum rules. 

No aggression was used to get you to come here, so feel free to create your own Shire forum with no karma ratings and compete with us.  Let the market decide what the best rules are.

[Dalebert]

Butt Genie, you've gotten a response. You essentially said "The free Internet service you are providing is not meeting my standards for what I expect from this particular type of free Internet service." The part you left out but which I assume is implied is "If my concerns are not addressed to my satisfaction, I will take my business elsewhere or start my own free Internet service of a similar nature and do it better than you."

And Ian's response was essentially "Noted."

To sum up, there's something more that you want. You're not going to get it. If that means we lose you as a "customer", we have come to terms with that sad inevitability.

[MaineShark]

To sum up, there's something more that you want. You're not going to get it. If that means we lose you as a "customer", we have come to terms with that sad inevitability.

I dunno.  Maybe he's willing to pay for it.  Maybe he wants the change so strongly that he's willing to hand over a hundred ounces of gold, in return for it.  A hundred ounces of gold would pay for a lot of activism/outreach/etc., so it might be a good deal.

Folks should hear him out, if he's willing to actually pay for what he wants, rather than just demanding it for free...

How 'bout it, BG?

[SeriousSplinters]

Ian was handling it just fine. The sarcasm and trolling arent very constructive. You both will make more friends on this forum by changing your attitudes. If your goal is to insult and belittle others for wanting some information, then this isnt the right place for you.

[Dalebert]

No, it wasn't sarcastic, except the last couple of words perhaps. It was direct and honest. Butt Genie has dragged this out quite enough.

[MaineShark]

Watch it, Dale.  You're not going to make any friends on this forum, that way.

Guess you'll just have to settle for the friends you have it real life, who happen to post here, as well, eh?

Splinters, a rather large chunk of those who post here, actually know each other.  We don't need to make friends with folks who are already our friends.

'Tis also kind of amusing that you're laughing at Dale's comic, and calling him a troll within a handful of posts...

[Dalebert]

Splinters, a rather large chunk of those who post here, actually know each other.

Please just drop it. He's been banned and can't respond. It's what he was working for. He can put a 4th notch in his keyboard now and start on another forum somewhere.

[B. Genie]

Wowza, this blew up overnight!  First off I want to thank everyone for reading this thread and responding.   I'm sure it took a while of your time and I would like to thank you for spending it on my behalf.  I will try to be as quick and concise with all of my responses.  I can say flat out, before I begin, that while it may seem heated through text sometimes, I like all of you and will try to address each of you with respect.

There are no bylaws here.  Only forum rules. 

I suppose we agree?  I guess I'm not sure as to what your definition of a bylaw is?  I was simply using it as a synonym for 'the rules of a society'.

No aggression was used to get you to come here, so feel free to create your own Shire forum with no karma ratings and compete with us.

I don't think I ever said I was aggressed against, I said my speech/expression was 'moderated' at one point, but I certainly don't think of that as aggression.   I think creating a separate forum to solve this relatively small issue would be superfluous;  as stated, I like this community a lot more than I dislike it.  While that is one way of resolving the issue at hand, I have other ideas.

Let the market decide what the best rules are. 

I am trying to get the marketplace to shape what the best rules are.  By way of the marketplace of ideas within this forum.

Butt Genie, you've gotten a response.

I've gotten responses, this is true,  but I feel as though they haven't actually addressed my comments since Ian's terse reply, "Some information doesn't need to be public.  I'm sorry if you don't agree.  Badgering me is not going to help you."  To which I agreed on all accounts but the badgering; I had asked nicely for the information twice after all.   At this point, my attempts at getting the information myself were discouraged and with the seemingly outright refusal of any 'help', I decided to try to appeal to Ian or any other moderator on the boards through reasoned discussion.  I think I have some good, community oriented reasons to try and know that information; the responses I had received thus far, to me, had set a bad precedent in forum moderation.  Specifically, the absurdity of denial when the number would be public information 'soon' anyway?  This is what makes me think that the moderation call was needlessly spiteful.

You essentially said "The free Internet service you are providing is not meeting my standards for what I expect from this particular type of free Internet service."

I want to thank you for taking the time to read and to restate, in perspective, the absurdity of complaining on any free internet message board.  It's true, I've been dissatisfied with how the forum rules had been applied to me - am I foolish for trying to make a change to policy through discourse?  I guess it would depend on who I was talking to; I think you liberty folks are very well reasoned people so I thought, why not give it a shot.

The part you left out but which I assume is implied is "If my concerns are not addressed to my satisfaction, I will take my business elsewhere or start my own free Internet service of a similar nature and do it better than you."

And Ian's response was essentially "Noted."

It's true I could take my 'business' elsewhere, but I wasn't ever threatening to leave; which thankfully you noted.  Also, starting my own service wasn't ever a thought I was honestly harboring.  I believe Ian was the one that suggested I start my own boards to compete.  The only things I know for certain Ian actually 'noted' to me was the denial of my request for the post number, and subtle denotations of, 'if you don't like it, you can leave'; rather than addressing my concerns on how his style of moderation could be counterproductive in a forum all about liberty.

To sum up, there's something more that you want. You're not going to get it. If that means we lose you as a "customer", we have come to terms with that sad inevitability.

If I was thinking of leaving over this, that would be true, but I never had plans to; I don't assume I'm any major asset to the boards where that kind of statement would really mean anything.  You're right that I'm clearly not getting everything I want, but I did manage to get this discussion with all you fine folk, and that's an optimist's start I guess.   

I dunno.  Maybe he's willing to pay for it.  Maybe he wants the change so strongly that he's willing to hand over a hundred ounces of gold, in return for it.  A hundred ounces of gold would pay for a lot of activism/outreach/etc., so it might be a good deal.

Thanks for taking a different point of view! It's awesome that you're thinking of solutions.  I'd gladly donate some money to the Shire Sharing backpack fund for the information, that is, if a price could be mutually agreed upon.  Though I would rather not do anything through paypal and, so far, being in the United States has been a problem when trying to obtain Bitcoins.  I just can't find a site I can trust  to do an electronic exchange.  Maybe I can get help with this later. 

Folks should hear him out, if he's willing to actually pay for what he wants, rather than just demanding it for free...

I'd also like to point out that I wasn't 'demanding' anything.  Once I was told 'no' to the number, I decided to try and figure it out myself.  Once I had the idea, I tried to appeal the moderation call using an array of different arguments to the positive.  Never once did I ever hold my membership ransom, nor did I threaten him to change to my liking; I only gave reasoned arguments to reconsider the action.  While possibly annoying, I didn't even 'demand' that he answer my arguments.

Ian was handling it just fine. The sarcasm and trolling arent very constructive. You both will make more friends on this forum by changing your attitudes. If your goal is to insult and belittle others for wanting some information, then this isnt the right place for you.

Ian was handling it just fine, but I'm glad you all weighed in.  Also, sarcasm can be very constructive!

I guess what I don't get it - was Splinters banned for this comment or for some other thing?  I can get if you don't like the guy, but most of what I've seen from him has been constructive or at least on topic since I joined.  Maybe he's a bit socially awkward, but hey, I'm sure I don't know all the info or what he was like when he was pestering Jerry - but then again, you made a rule that pretty specifically only applied to his situation and new people; blow-back principals might tell you what about that situation?  Anyway, my probably unwanted two cents - if he was booted for that comment above, I feel pretty scared that I'll be next and for me that would be a very sad thing.

Watch it, Dale.  You're not going to make any friends on this forum, that way.  Guess you'll just have to settle for the friends you have it real life, who happen to post here, as well, eh?  Splinters, a rather large chunk of those who post here, actually know each other.  We don't need to make friends with folks who are already our friends.

I'm glad you're all friends in real life as well as on the internet; great job and thank you all for your hard work and activism in, I'm assuming, Keene.  I don't know for sure because I try to keep to the Shire Boards seeing as I'm not from NH.  I hope that, just because I'm not there with you all, my opinion in this community is not in some way diminished to you.  I don't think that would be an attitude very conducive in alluring outsiders to the board.  :/

So I think I've said everything I needed to on this, but I'd be free to hear more from you.  I know you think I've dragged this out quite enough but these things matter to me.   I know I'm new here, so I'll probably have to fight extra hard to gain your trust, or to try to make salient points to the community as an outsider, but know that I'm honestly trying to make this forum an even better place than it already is.

pic related : just like the rest of you,



for liberty

[Dalebert]

It wasn't any one comment. It was a pattern of behavior. I was already fairly convinced that he was mainly here to stir up shit being purposefully and unnecessarily argumentative.

You're showing the same pattern of behavior arguing page after page over really trivial things. It is my opinion that you, like SeriousSplinters, are purposefully trying to be disruptive of the forum. You're welcome to disagree, you've already said that you disagree but I simply don't believe you, frankly. If you continue to obsess over forum policy minutia, I'll take that as more than confirmation enough that you're here to purposefully be a wrench in the intended purposes of the forum. Stop being an attention whore.

If you or someone else would like a more detailed explanation of why I feel the need to ban people like you (trolls) for the sake of the forum being able to serve its intended purposes, I encourage you to read "What is a troll?".

[Skeptikos]

I know I'm new here, so I'll probably have to fight extra hard to gain your trust, or to try to make salient points to the community as an outsider, but know that I'm honestly trying to make this forum an even better place than it already is.

If that's truly the case, let me give you my blunt, honest responses to your post, so that you can use the feedback to stop accidentally creating the exact opposite impression.

Wowza, this blew up overnight!  First off I want to thank everyone for reading this thread and responding.   I'm sure it took a while of your time and I would like to thank you for spending it on my behalf.  I will try to be as quick and concise with all of my responses.  I can say flat out, before I begin, that while it may seem heated through text sometimes, I like all of you and will try to address each of you with respect.

It sure did take an awful lot of time. An awful lot. There's nothing in this thread that could possibly warrant that much writing. Maybe you get a perverse pleasure out of writing pointless legal briefs, or maybe you like wasting people's time (or both). I don't understand how you can, on the one hand, clog the forum with so much writing about such a trivial issue, and, on the other hand, profess to like all of us and want to treat us with respect.

Butt Genie, you've gotten a response.

I've gotten responses, this is true,  but I feel as though they haven't actually addressed my comments since Ian's terse reply, "Some information doesn't need to be public.  I'm sorry if you don't agree.  Badgering me is not going to help you."  To which I agreed on all accounts but the badgering; I had asked nicely for the information twice after all.   At this point, my attempts at getting the information myself were discouraged and with the seemingly outright refusal of any 'help', I decided to try to appeal to Ian or any other moderator on the boards through reasoned discussion.  I think I have some good, community oriented reasons to try and know that information; the responses I had received thus far, to me, had set a bad precedent in forum moderation.  Specifically, the absurdity of denial when the number would be public information 'soon' anyway?  This is what makes me think that the moderation call was needlessly spiteful.

Your "reasoned discussion" is pure sophistry and your "community oriented" motivations are totally implausible.

Given that, it certainly appears that you are badgering Ian, and his terse reply is an appropriate strategy for avoiding a pointless, time-wasting debate with a dishonest poster.

am I foolish for trying to make a change to policy through discourse?

There's a difference between discourse and trolling.

After you try (and fail) at discourse, and you keep dragging out the issue for no apparent reason, it becomes trolling.

I'd also like to point out that I wasn't 'demanding' anything.  Once I was told 'no' to the number, I decided to try and figure it out myself.  Once I had the idea, I tried to appeal the moderation call using an array of different arguments to the positive.  Never once did I ever hold my membership ransom, nor did I threaten him to change to my liking; I only gave reasoned arguments to reconsider the action.

"array of different arguments"? "reasoned arguments"? You made the vague, unexplained assertion that Ian, by refraining from posting a basically irrelevant number on a discussion forum, is somehow hurting the liberty movement. It's such a weak "argument" that (apparently) nobody on the forum has even felt the need to address it.

While possibly annoying, I didn't even 'demand' that he answer my arguments.

Perhaps not literally, but you sure have wasted a lot of time griping about it.

I guess what I don't get it - was Splinters banned for this comment or for some other thing?  I can get if you don't like the guy, but most of what I've seen from him has been constructive or at least on topic since I joined.

That's kind of a bizarre impression to have. My impression was that he was just here to complain about the moderation.

That is what nearly every post of his was about, after all.

if he was booted for that comment above, I feel pretty scared that I'll be next and for me that would be a very sad thing.

If your posts so far are typical of what you intend to post in the future, then I would count it as a blessing.

I hope that, just because I'm not there with you all, my opinion in this community is not in some way diminished to you.  I don't think that would be an attitude very conducive in alluring outsiders to the board.  :/

There's only one person I've seen who has had an issue with this, and it was a guy who seemed (to me) to be insane. Most new people understand that, to some degree, this is a logical mindset. So far it's been perfectly "conducive in alluring" reasonable new members.

So I think I've said everything I needed to on this, but I'd be free to hear more from you.  I know you think I've dragged this out quite enough but these things matter to me.   I know I'm new here, so I'll probably have to fight extra hard to gain your trust, or to try to make salient points to the community as an outsider, but know that I'm honestly trying to make this forum an even better place than it already is.

If I were you, I would start by scrapping the stupid, annoying butt pics. After that, I would stop trolling the moderators. Then I would make an effort to make positive contributions to the forum. Since "This forum is intended for discussion of liberty activism and community in the Shire", a positive contribution would be something along those lines.
It's a strategy which has worked pretty well for me over the years.

If I were trying to get banned, however, I would keep digging myself further into a hole by trying to debate forum moderators for no legitimate reason, I would refrain from posting anything constructive, and I would make sure to litter the forum with annoying butt spam. Oh, and I would use a screenname which suggests that I'm only here to be a troll.

You're the genie. If you want to gain our trust, you'll have to make that happen yourself.

[Dalebert]

Well said, Skeptikos. When future trolls pretend to not understand why they got banned, I'm going to point them at "What is a troll?" and this thread. Maybe Butt Genie and SeriousSplinters have contributed something of value to this forum, albeit accidentally.

[MaineShark]

Splinters, a rather large chunk of those who post here, actually know each other.

Please just drop it. He's been banned and can't respond. It's what he was working for. He can put a 4th notch in his keyboard now and start on another forum somewhere.

Dude, my intentions were sincere.  I think some folks are failing to grasp that this isn't only a special-interest Internet forum, but is actually ties into real-world connections.  Largely, the folks who are on here, actually know each other and have established relationships.  Those strangers who show up need to understand that this isn't the first day of college orientation, when all the new freshmen show up and no one knows anyone, so jumping up and down for attention can win quick friends.  This is more akin to someone's house party or barbecue.  Sure, there are folks partying on the front lawn, and if you're walking down the street and slow to look, they'll probably invite you to stop and hang out for a while.  But most of them already know each other, so if you're a stranger who stops at someone else's party, jumping up and down and picking fights isn't going to win you friends in the same way it might if the whole group were strangers.

In many cases, while they are trolling, their motivations are to win friends, not only to be disruptive.  Sort of the "class clown" effect.  While I don't disagree with the moderation, I think that it will be beneficial if we (and that's everyone who wants to see this place succeed, not just, "hey, you moderators better do something") need to be more proactive about explaining that once new members start showing that sort of behavior, but before it gets to this level.  Sort of like taking the drunk partier aside and asking him to drink a cup of coffee and chill out a bit.  If he gets belligerent and throws a punch, of course, there's no choice but to tell him to leave.  However, there are many situations in which he'll likely listen.

[FTL_Ian]

True, but most new people here have no problems interacting within the forum rules.  Both splinters and BG showed up about the same time with similar intentions.  In fact, I've seen them both online here at 5am.  My guess is they know each other.

[MaineShark]

Wouldn't surprise me.

Like I said, I don't disagree with the moderation.

I just think this points out something we need to be cognizant of.  Some folks who engage in such behavior, are just trying to find a way to fit in, and the time they've spent living in dysfunctional societies has taught them poor skills for doing so.

Others are just jerks, or course, and are unlikely to change in any case.  The trick is weeding out which are which...